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How can Muslims have faith in Allah when he can't preserve his word?


08-22-2015, 09:49 PM #1
Thunderian
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Muslims say the Quran was sent because God's original word -- the Bible -- became corrupt.

I'm wondering how Muslims sort this out in their heads.  How does an all-powerful creator still remain omnipotent when he can't manage to preserve his truth for believers?
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08-22-2015, 11:00 PM #2
Scimitar
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Hi bro Thunderian,

you've asked a good question here Smile

the answer is one you may not have been expecting. See, I can (and probably will) go down the same routes of discussion about how God never promised to preserve the OT nor the NT, but He did promise to preserve the Qur'an... and post proofs of these from all three sources (OT, NT & Qur'an)... but instead, I'll just put it to you like this:

Imagine, all the bibles (OT & NT including all the different versions) and the copies of the Qur'an in the whole world and all the translations, were burnt and the ashes thrown into the oceans - further, let's say that all the web archives of any biblical or quranic verses were to disappear forever and never appear again on the web - which scripture still survives?

The one which is memorised.

No one has memorised the bible bro - but when it comes to the Qur'an, millions of people have committed the whole of the Qur'an to heart - by memory... all it would take is for an Islamic committee to present an Huffaz (one who has memorized the Qur'an) from Arabia, Egypt, USA, UK, Indonesia, Pakistan, Turkey etc - for example - and have them recite - they will all be reciting exactly the same words in the original Arabic...

...and thus, the Qur'an can easily be reproduced in book form forthwith... preserved? YES.

What other revelation... nay, even book, in the history of this planet can lay claim to such an insurance policy?

Verily We: It is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Quran) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption). Qur'an 15:9

Scimi
This post was last modified: 08-22-2015, 11:01 PM by Scimitar.

Out beyond ideas
of wrong-doing,


and right-doing,

there is a field...

...I'll meet you there.
€



Jalaluddin Rumi
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08-22-2015, 11:23 PM #3
khadeejah
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Quote:Muslims say the Quran was sent because God's original word -- the Bible -- became corrupt.

Not exactly Thunderian.  Muslims don’t believe “the Bible”  is God’s original word and Muslims don't believe God revealed the Quran because "the Bible became corrupt."     But  I'll answer your  loaded question anyways:  

This is what Muslims believe about the Bible:

Quote: It is an article of Islamic faith to believe in all of God’s Books that He revealed to His Chosen Prophets as guidance for their nations. Muslims believe that the Bible contains remnants of the original Revelations given to the Israelite prophets from the Almighty God.  These include the Taurat (Torah) which was revealed to Moses by which he organized and ruled the Children of Israel as a community of believers, the Zabur (Psalms) given to David, and the Injeel (Gospel/Evangil) that was revealed to Jesus as guidance for the Children of Israel.  Muslims believe that all of the prophets followed the same religion which was to worship God Alone and turn away from all false deities and that this is at the core of their teachings which they received from God.  All of God’s prophets were also instructed to tell their people about the coming of the Final prophet to all of mankind, Muhammad, and for these reasons,  Muslims accept as true,  those verses in the Bible which are in agreement with the tenets of Islam.


Quote:I'm wondering how Muslims sort this out in their heads.  How does an all-powerful creator still remain omnipotent when he can't manage to preserve his truth for believers?

 
All praise is for God and Peace and Blessings be upon His prophets.  "God is the all powerful Creator." Agreed.   "God is omnipotent." Agreed.   "God can't manage to preserve his truth for the believers?"  That is your saying not mine and I seek refuge with God from ever uttering such words.However,  sorting out the fact that God did not preserve His earlier scriptures is not hard at all.  It's much  easier than sorting out the Trinity, or believing that God died on a cross while simultaneously managing all the affairs of the world that He created, or sorting out that Jesus and the bible tell me I have to do good works of righteousness and repent to God while at the same time Church doctrine says I only have to believe that Jesus died for my sins and I'll be saved...but let's get your confusion sorted out:  

Did God preserve His Word?  He most certainly did,  He preserved it in His Final Revelation to all of humanity:  the Glorious Quran.  He said (what means): 
 
Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian. (Quran 15:9)
 
Many Jews and Christians since the dawn of Islam who believe in God and submit to His will have read and accepted his Final Revelation because they are believers in Him.  He preserved it for the believers- the ones who will be successful in this life and the Afterlife!  You remember that first verse you asked me about Thunderian?

Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful.
 
Notice it didn't say "with them in the bible"?   EDIT:  Muhammad is mentioned in the Torah and the Injeel and the Jews and Christians knew it but concealed it.

 Now Thunderian wants to know "Why didn’t He preserve the earlier Scriptures?"  and he thinks we Muslims should have a problem sorting that out in our heads.  But it's not hard to understand at all.   God didn't preserve the earlier scriptures because they were only meant for certain peoples at certain times. - that simple.   Whereas the Quran is meant for all peoples until the end of time:


This [Qur'an] is a clear statement to [all] the people and a guidance and instruction for those conscious of Allah .

And that is why He, the Glorious and Exalted has preserved it and made it a witness over the earlier scriptures and what remains of them:

And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.


Alhamdulillaah, He knows best.

thanks for asking Thunderian. 
This post was last modified: 08-23-2015, 08:46 AM by khadeejah.


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08-23-2015, 12:08 AM #4
Thunderian
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That's a sidestep, Scimitar.

By definition, an all-powerful being like God must be able to keep his message to humanity intact.  Do you not agree?

08-23-2015, 01:35 AM #5
Scimitar
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its not a sidestep - it's a simple test to see which one would be preserved in the worst case scenario... the Qur'an.

you're asking me if an all-powerful being like God must be able to keep his message to humanity intact?

my answer - Only if HE said HE would guard a scripture from corruption!

And that's exactly my point. God doesn't promise it to any scripture before the Qur'an, and only the Qur'an.

Scimi
This post was last modified: 08-23-2015, 01:39 AM by Scimitar.

Out beyond ideas
of wrong-doing,


and right-doing,

there is a field...

...I'll meet you there.
€



Jalaluddin Rumi
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08-23-2015, 02:36 AM #6
meltbanana
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(08-22-2015, 11:00 PM)Scimitar Wrote:  God never promised to preserve the OT nor the NT

to use your own words brother 'you must have missed the memo on the mailing list'
The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
This post was last modified: 08-23-2015, 02:38 AM by meltbanana. Edit Reason: sp
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08-23-2015, 02:44 AM #7
meltbanana
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Textual and archaeological evidences do not support the traditional views about the formation and preservation of the quranic text.   http://www.studytoanswer.net/myths_ch1.html

08-23-2015, 06:23 AM #8
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We will know the truth soon enough (http://www.corpuscoranicum.de), then silly justifications like millions of Muslims have committed the Koran to memory whereas none have the Bible must mean that the former is true. This is side-stepping and giving a non answer just as Thunderian stated and I also doubt that one can produce statistical evidence for such a claim. Scimitar is evidently too modern in his thinking since one has to wonder how the ancient theologians were able to quote verses of Scripture (enough to reproduce almost the entire NT from their writings alone) without having memorized them? Since the most ancient manuscripts had no punctuation and versification, cross-referencing would have been inconvenient at best. And what can we suppose about the countless scribes that have preserved the Scriptures through the millennia, are we to suppose that even when making hand-copies of the material they didn't have a profound knowledge of the Bible? It's one thing to read dozens of books, it's another to copy them all by hand.

Besides, what the Muslims will tell you to impress false doctrines on you is usually not what the ancient Islamic scholars teach. This is why they haven't touched any of the quotations I produced from the Koran and Hadith which they can't explain away by manipulating logic.


The Imam Muhammad Isma-il al-Bukhari records that Ibn Abbas said that "the word “Tahrif” (corruption) signifies to change a thing from its original nature; and there is no man who could corrupt a single word of what proceeds from God, so that the Jews and Christians could corrupt only by misrepresenting the meanings of the word of God."

Ibn Mazar and Ibn Abi Hatim state, in the commentary known as the Tafsir Durr-i-Mansur, that they have it on the authority of Ibn Muniyah, that the Taurat (i.e. the books of Moses), and the Injil (i.e. the Gospels), are in the same state of purity in which they were sent down from heaven, and that no alterations had been made in them, but that the Jews were wont to deceieve the people by unsound arguments, and by wrestling the sense of Scripture."

Shah Waliyu 'llah, in his commentary, the Fauzu 'l-Kabir, and also Ibn Abbas, support the same view.

This appears to be the correct interpretation of the various verses of the Qur'an charging the Jews with having corrupted the meaning of the sacred Scriptures.

For example, Suratu Ali Imran (iii.), 72: "There are certainly some of them who read the Scriptures perversely, that ye may think what they read to be really in the Scriptures, yet it is not in the Scriptures; and they saayj this is from God, but it is not from God; and they speak that which is false concerning God against their own knowledge."

The Imam Fahru 'd'din, in his commentary on this verse, and many other of the same character which occur in the Qur'an, says it refers to a tahrif-i-ma'nawi, and that it does not mean that the Jews altered the text, but merely that they made alterations in the course of reading.

But whilst all the old commentators, who most probably had never seen a copy of the sacred books of the Jews and Christian, only charge them with tahrif-i-ma'nawi, all modern controversialists among the Muhammadans content for tahrif-i-lafzi, as being the onoly solution of the difficulty.

...

The most plausible modern objections urged by Muslim divines is, that the Christian have lost the Injil which was sent down from heaven to Jesus; and that the New Testament contains merely the Hadis, or Sunnah - the traditions handed down by Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, and the others. It is, of course, a mere assertion, unsupported by any proof; but it appears to be a line of argument which commends itself to many modern Muslims.

- Patrick Hughes, Dictionary of Islam pg. 62: "Corruption"
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08-23-2015, 09:05 AM #9
khadeejah
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(08-23-2015, 02:36 AM)meltbanana Wrote:  
(08-22-2015, 11:00 PM)Scimitar Wrote:  God never promised to preserve the OT nor the NT

to use your own words brother 'you must have missed the memo on the mailing list'
The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

That's a verse from the Psalms - it doesn't say anything about "The Bible."  Talk about taking verses out of context to prove your belief, Sheesh.  

Let's see it in context:

-----------------------------------------------

     Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.

     They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.

     The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:

     Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?

     For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.

     The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

     Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever

     The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nice message in those verses, all praise is for God. 

Looks like Psalms 12 is in line with Islamic teachings too.


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08-23-2015, 09:15 AM #10
meltbanana
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(08-23-2015, 09:05 AM)khadeejah Wrote:  
(08-23-2015, 02:36 AM)meltbanana Wrote:  
(08-22-2015, 11:00 PM)Scimitar Wrote:  God never promised to preserve the OT nor the NT

to use your own words brother 'you must have missed the memo on the mailing list'
The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

That's a verse from the Psalms - it doesn't say anything about "The Bible."  Talk about taking verses out of context to prove your belief, Sheesh.  

Let's see it in context:

-----------------------------------------------

     Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.

     They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.

     The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:

     Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?

     For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.

     The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

     Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever

     The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nice message in those verses, all praise is for God. 

Looks like Psalms 12 is in line with Islamic teachings too.

what don't you understand dear khadeejah? or should I rather ask what don't you want to understand. it's a principle. let's say God would've promised a nice flower to a black mother for whatever reason at whatever occasion  in Egypt for playing with her child for one hour 3000 years ago. according to you this would've been a one-timer because of context but according to timeless truth from then on this goes for any woman at any time even for a white woman in New Jersey in the year 2015. under God there is no if or but and everyone's the same.