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The Game Of Relativity: Morality vs Law, Right & Wrong - No Absolutes?


07-28-2015, 05:44 PM #1
sPEktrall
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The Game Of Relativity: Morality vs Law, Right & Wrong - No Absolutes?

So I suppose its time for another interesting discussion of deep things to consider.  I dont want to start off with too much other than two basic questions.  We all like to associate the following terms with vice, but....

What makes things such as murder, rape, theft, child abuse, and slavery wrong? 

...also

Has  civil law and prosperity(scientific dictatorship) made the illusion of a self professed moral people?
This post was last modified: 07-28-2015, 05:54 PM by sPEktrall.

Prov 15:7 The lips of the wise disperse knowledge: but the heart of the foolish doeth not so.

07-28-2015, 07:01 PM #2
Kung Fu
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Without God in the equation theft, murder, rape, and etc. are neither right nor wrong.

And no, science and this society is actually pushing us away from religious morality and more towards a society where nothing is really right and nor wrong. You can commit adultery, lie, cheat, and it's all subjective nowadays. There will be more to come so just you wait folks.
This post was last modified: 07-28-2015, 07:04 PM by Kung Fu.

Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahu alaihi wasalam) said:

"My similitude and that of the life of this world is that of a traveler who took a rest at mid-day under a shade of a tree and then left it."       (Ahmad, at-Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah and al-Hakim)

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07-28-2015, 07:36 PM #3
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(07-28-2015, 07:01 PM)Kung Fu Wrote:  Without God in the equation theft, murder, rape, and etc. are neither right nor wrong.

And no, science and this society is actually pushing us away from religious morality and more towards a society where nothing is really right and nor wrong. You can commit adultery, lie, cheat, and it's all subjective nowadays. There will be more to come so just you wait folks.

I agree with my brother Kung Fu. Morality has been instilled on us from our Creator, it acts as a precursor or a confirming light to guidance. This is called fitrah -Man’s natural disposition. There is no way to scientifically prove it.
I posted this in another thread....

The Kapauku Papuans Of West Guinea

The material is taken from a book called The Kapauku Papuans Of West Guinea by Leopold Pospisil. It is a case study of Stone-Age Kapauku tribe who led their aboriginal lives undisturbed by the spreading western civilization until 1938. The Kapauku Papuans are mountain people who belong to one of the several tribes whose members inhabit the central highlands of western New Guinea. Their country, most of which lies 1500 m above sea level, is composed of rugged mountain chains and deep valleys.

he Kapauku have an interesting world view. If we have to compare their religion versus Islam, the difference is very little. Regarding the Creator of the universe, the Kapauku believe:

The universe itself and all existence was Ebijata, "designed by Ugatame", the Creator, Ugatame has a dual nature: He is supposed to be masculine and feminine at the same time, is referred to as the two entities, and is manifested to the people by the duality of the sun and the moon. To my enquiry whether Ugatame was the sun and the moon I received the answer a firm denial. The sun is conceived as the ball of fire, because it provides light and is warm; moon is believed to be a cold light like that of a firefly or the bacteria that infest rotting wood. Sun and moon are only manifestations of Ugatame who thus makes his presence known to the people. they definitely are not Creator himself.[1]

On the nature of Ugatame, the Creator:

Ugatame is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, credited with the creation of all things and with having determined all events. Strangely enough, however, he is not believed to exist himself. When I questioned this contention, a Kapauku defended skillfully by a question: "But how can he exist when he created all the existence?" Obviously Ugatame is beyond existence, because to Kapauku all that exists must be of phenomenonal nature; one must be able to see, hear, smell, taste or feel it. But the Creator is beyond this phenomenal dimension, because of the simple reason that He created it. because He is so to speak, in the fifth dimension and is not of phenomenal nature, He is able to be omnipresent."[2]

How about good and evil?

From this position the Kapauku "logicians" reason further that evil as well as good have been equally created and determined by Ugatame. Consequently, he can be neither good, nor bad, but he must be indifferent.... In the world created by Ugatame everything is real to the Kapauku. Even the evil spirits that belong to the creation of Ugatame are necessarily phenomenal and not supernatural.[3]

On the aspect of free will, Kapauku think:

As a further extrapolations from above premises the Kapauku argue that because everything has been determined by Ugatame there cannot be anything like a free will in man, and consequently there is no sin. After all, Creator created good as well as evil, so why should he punish a man for executing his own will?[4]
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07-28-2015, 08:31 PM #4
sPEktrall
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I agree, morality can only come from religion. It is also a paradox that everyone not submitted to a religious system is a relativist, yet they aren't even really  if you truly think about it...  Relativists rebuke certain notions and condemn them as wrong even though they hold no absolutes and thus have no true authority to stand on to contend something is immoral (wrong) other than their own self contrived code of ethics ... But, how authoritative is ones own authority?  It becomes nothing more than an opinion or strong persuasion...   So, its kind of self defeating...  Undecided

Most people just pick and choose their own rights and wrongs from a handful of various beliefs, but they are their own authority.   

Either way none of that matters, because after reasoning with relativists(and even through certain circumstances) they will eventually come out and reveal they do hold to absolutes...

Moral relativism and the idea there are no truths is a flawed concept.
This post was last modified: 07-28-2015, 09:02 PM by sPEktrall.

Prov 15:7 The lips of the wise disperse knowledge: but the heart of the foolish doeth not so.
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07-28-2015, 09:17 PM #5
novam terram
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(07-28-2015, 08:31 PM)sPEktrall Wrote:  Most people just pick and choose their own rights and wrongs from a handful of various beliefs, but they are their own authority.   

Either way none of that matters, because after reasoning with relativists they will eventually come out and reveal they do hold to absolutes...

Moral relativism and the idea there are no truths is a flawed concept.
Your morality is also relative. You're probably familiar with the saying that one's true character is defined by how they would behave when no one else is watching. Think about it, would you behave much differently if you believed God wasn't watching? Maybe in some ways, but not regarding how you treat others. That's because you (hopefully) have your own ideals apart from those given to you by your religion.
This post was last modified: 07-28-2015, 09:23 PM by novam terram.
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07-28-2015, 09:31 PM #6
sPEktrall
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Only a relativist has the right to say my morality is relative, because they hold to no absolutes.  The authority of my worldview comes from the Bible, if it didn't come from a system of beliefs then I would be a relativist and have no true authority for anything that comes out of my mouth.  Everything is reduced to opinion and self persuasion that can be no better or worse than anyone else's...

In a world of relativity my actions in secret bear no meaning, they are neither right nor wrong and thus cant be subject to any sort of moral judgment by a relativist.  

The insinuation that morals outside of religion is somehow a good thing, and morals only derived solely from religion as being bad can only mean anything if it is an absolute claim.  If you are implying that morals outside of religion is a good thing then what authority do you have to allude to that?  Why do you say that hopefully  my morals come separate from my religion?  How would that be a bad thing?


Look, sorry if that is confusing, but I am trying to make a point....
This post was last modified: 07-28-2015, 09:39 PM by sPEktrall.

Prov 15:7 The lips of the wise disperse knowledge: but the heart of the foolish doeth not so.
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07-28-2015, 09:56 PM #7
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Q: What makes things such as murder, rape, theft, child abuse, and slavery wrong?

A: It hurts people physically & psychologically.

Q: Has civil law and prosperity(scientific dictatorship) made the illusion of a self professed moral people?

A: Actually, it's white supremacy & white privilege that is to blame for the illusion.

07-28-2015, 10:00 PM #8
sPEktrall
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(07-28-2015, 09:56 PM)TonyVanDam Wrote:  Q: What makes things such as murder, rape, theft, child abuse, and slavery wrong?

A: It hurts people physically & psychologically.

Q: Has  civil law and prosperity(scientific dictatorship) made the illusion of a self professed moral people?

A: Actually, it's white supremacy & white privilege that is to blame for the illusion.

What makes hurting people wrong tho....?


What even makes white supremacy and white privilege wrong for that matter?

Prov 15:7 The lips of the wise disperse knowledge: but the heart of the foolish doeth not so.
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07-28-2015, 10:25 PM #9
khadeejah
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(07-28-2015, 09:31 PM)sPEktrall Wrote:  Only a relativist has the right to say my morality is relative, because they hold to no absolutes.  The authority of my worldview comes from the Bible, if it didn't come from a system of beliefs then I would be a relativist and have no true authority for anything that comes out of my mouth.  Everything is reduced to opinion and self persuasion that can be no better or worse than anyone else's...

In a world of relativity my actions in secret bear no meaning, they are neither right nor wrong and thus cant be subject to any sort of moral judgment by a relativist.  

The insinuation that morals outside of religion is somehow a good thing, and morals only derived solely from religion as being bad can only mean anything if it is an absolute claim.  If you are implying that morals outside of religion is a good thing then what authority do you have to allude to that?  Why do you say that hopefully  my morals come separate from my religion?  How would that be a bad thing?


Look, sorry if that is confusing, but I am trying to make a point....

I like what you're saying Spektrall.  The anti-religion people accuse us of being backward, brainwashed and programmed  - yadda yadda yadda.   They don't consider that religion is nourishment for the soul, and the way I see it,  the more knowledge you have about your religion the better person you will be.  Just like the best doctors and smartest scientists in the world only get there from intensive studying, training, and experience.  For Muslims, Islam is a complete way of life and the Qur'aan and authentic hadeeth are the manual for which I am extremely grateful. If anti-religion people see it as something strange, that's their problem not mine.


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07-28-2015, 10:50 PM #10
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Is there a well recorded well documented society/culture/group of humans that existed in our past history that had absolutely no (provable) knowledge or concepts or cognitive thought, that was communicated, in a way to know beyond a reasonable doubt, that they had no religion whatsoever to the point they were just killing, raping, stealing, running a muck, if you will ect ect. because neither right nor wrong was expressed???


Because if there was such a well documented group, can I have the name please?? So I can independently look into it myself.. it seems rather interesting.. 


I am only able to find stories of murder, rape, theft, child abuse and slavery in groups that HAD or HAVE religious beliefs/communicated concepts.. whether those beliefs are practiced by all or only a few doesn't matter because they still exist within the group.



Which brings me to my next question... how would you even know what a human or group of humans would or would not do, with no (provable) religious knowledge or concepts or cognitive thought, that was communicated, in a way to know beyond a reasonable doubt, without using your complete imagination?? 

İmage


I, for the record, before I become judged by the judgmental, I do not believe in humans version of God nor do I believe there is no God at all. The Gods that are made up by man have nothing to do with the REAL God because NOT ONE human on earth knows what the real God is all about.
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