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Is Muhammad prophesied in the Bible?


07-11-2015, 02:54 PM #1
khadeejah
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Let’s start from the beginning.  How old was Ishmael?

A  question for Thunderian and Christians:

 If you read the bible cover to cover then you know the story of Abraham, his two wives Sarah and Hagar and their children, Isaac and Ishmael respectively.  You know that Ishmael was the first born (Gen 16:15) son and that according to the biblical narrative, Isaac was born 14 years later. (Gen. 21:5). He grew and was weaned (Gen 21:6). According to http://www.gotquestions.org/weaning-child-Bible.html  the age of weaning in those days was between 18 months to 5 years.  So Isaac was weaned when Ishmael was anywhere between say the ages of 16-19. 

With this in mind, how do you reconcile the following verses which speak of Ishmael as an infant or young child and not a teenager or young man?

 14And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.
 
15And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.

16And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way off, as it were a bowshot: for she said, Let me not see the death of the child. And she sat over against him, and lift up her voice, and wept.

 17And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.

18Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.

19And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.

Do you see this as a discrepancy?  If not then how do you explain it? 
Thank you in advance for your honest and thoughtful reply.
This post was last modified: 07-18-2015, 01:17 PM by khadeejah.


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07-11-2015, 03:38 PM #2
sPEktrall
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(07-11-2015, 02:54 PM)khadeejah Wrote:  Let’s start from the beginning.  How old was Ishmael?

A  question for Thunderian and Christians:

 If you read the bible cover to cover then you know the story of Abraham, his two wives Sarah and Hagar and their children, Isaac and Ishmael respectively.  You know that Ishmael was the first born (Gen 16:15) son and that according to the biblical narrative, Isaac was born 14 years later. (Gen. 21:5). He grew and was weaned (Gen 21:6). According to http://www.gotquestions.org/weaning-child-Bible.html  the age of weaning in those days was between 18 months to 5 years.  So Isaac was weaned when Ishmael was anywhere between say the ages of 16-19. 

With this in mind, how do you reconcile the following verses which speak of Ishmael as an infant or young child and not a teenager or young man?

 14And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.
 
15And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.

16And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way off, as it were a bowshot: for she said, Let me not see the death of the child. And she sat over against him, and lift up her voice, and wept.

 17And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.

18Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.

19And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.

Do you see this as a discrepancy?  If not then how do you explain it? 
Thank you in advance for your honest and thoughtful reply.

Just so I understand...

You see this as a prophecy that points to Mohammed?

Prov 15:7 The lips of the wise disperse knowledge: but the heart of the foolish doeth not so.

07-11-2015, 07:13 PM #3
khadeejah
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[quote='sPEktrall' pid='8064' dateline='1436643485']


Quote:Just so I understand...

You see this as a prophecy that points to Mohammed?

Laying the groundwork, but actually yes.  I'll explain why later, inshaa'Allaah. 

Do you have an answer to the question though?  Do you see any discrepancy?  If not, then how do you explain that a teenager/young man is placed on his mother's shoulder, cast under a shrub, and watched by his helpless mother,  referred to as a seemingly helpless  "child" and "lad"? 

It's not a trick question SpEktrall, it's a serious question and I think, a valid question.


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07-11-2015, 07:24 PM #4
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Well, if Muhammad is the great prophet of the faith, then why does the following passage of scripture reference Hagar's children in such a dim way?  You would think that such a great prophet would be regarded with greater reverence than what the following passage implies...

Galatians 4:22-31Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was bornafter the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.


It says to cast out the bondwoman and her son.  It is a reference to Hagar's child.  If this is a prophecy of Mohammed, and Mohammed is so great, then why does it speak of him in such an irreverent and callous way?  


 
This post was last modified: 07-11-2015, 07:25 PM by sPEktrall.

Prov 15:7 The lips of the wise disperse knowledge: but the heart of the foolish doeth not so.
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07-11-2015, 08:14 PM #5
khadeejah
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SpEktrall,  We didn't  get to there yet. 

Why are you answering my question with another question?   Why can't you just answer with an answer?  Here let me try to make it easier.  Please choose one of the following:

A.)  Yes there is some discrepancy regarding the age of Ishmael in this story.
B.)  No there is no discrepancy.  It makes perfect sense that Hagar would carry her teenage son on her shoulder, cast him under a shrub when they ran out of water so as not to watch her teenage son suffer and die etc...

Thank you.

 
(07-11-2015, 07:24 PM)sPEktrall Wrote:  Well, if Muhammad is the great prophet of the faith, then why does the following passage of scripture reference Hagar's children in such a dim way?  You would think that such a great prophet would be regarded with greater reverence than what the following passage implies...

Galatians 4:22-31Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was bornafter the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.


It says to cast out the bondwoman and her son.  It is a reference to Hagar's child.  If this is a prophecy of Mohammed, and Mohammed is so great, then why does it speak of him in such an irreverent and callous way?  


 


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07-11-2015, 08:28 PM #6
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I don't see the word infant anywhere in that passage.  Do you?  And lad means 'boy' or 'young man', both of which are terms that can be used for the 16-19 age range.

As for carrying Ishmael on her shoulder, the Hebrew text has a disjunctive accent on the word "her shoulder" that marks a syntactic division between the phrase "her shoulder" and the phrase "and the lad."  She carried water on her shoulder -- not Ishmael.  Regardless, no mother carries their child on their shoulder.  It's not the best translation from the Hebrew, but not a problem unless you want it to be.

Likewise, the word "cast" in this instance gives the impression Hagar flung Ishmael under a bush.  Again, not the best translation from the Hebrew.  The word translated as "cast" in that instance is also used in other places in scripture to convey something a little less energetic.  The implication is that she helped him into the shade and then moved away so as not see him die.
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07-11-2015, 09:06 PM #7
khadeejah
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(07-11-2015, 08:28 PM)Thunderian Wrote:  I don't see the word infant anywhere in that passage.  Do you?  And lad means 'boy' or 'young man', both of which are terms that can be used for the 16-19 age range.

As for carrying Ishmael on her shoulder, the Hebrew text has a disjunctive accent on the word "her shoulder" that marks a syntactic division between the phrase "her shoulder" and the phrase "and the lad."  She carried water on her shoulder -- not Ishmael.  Regardless, no mother carries their child on their shoulder.  It's not the best translation from the Hebrew, but not a problem unless you want it to be.

Likewise, the word "cast" in this instance gives the impression Hagar flung Ishmael under a bush.  Again, not the best translation from the Hebrew.  The word translated as "cast" in that instance is also used in other places in scripture to convey something a little less energetic.  The implication is that she helped him into the shade and then moved away so as not see him die.

Okay Thunderian chooses B.  Thank you for your response.  I don't have access to the original Hebrew text.  Could you enlighten me as to what the Hebrew word is that is translated as "cast?"   And also maybe point me in the direction of where I could find the same word used in other passages?  When I was a Christian I owned a Lexicon but  I lost it during my travels and haven't replaced it. 

Oddly enough, there is no other bible translation that I read that implies "helps"  The majority of them say "cast," "put," "placed" and "placeth"    One even says "shoved!"   I can see these words conveying a "less energetic"  meaning of "cast", (well except for "shoved").  But they certainly don't convey the meaning of "help."

New International Version
When the water in the skin was gone, she put the boy under one of the bushes.

New Living Translation
When the water was gone, she  put the boy in the shade of a bush.

English Standard Version
When the water in the skin was gone, she  put the child under one of the bushes.

New American Standard Bible
When the water in the skin was used up, she left the boy under one of the bushes.

King James Bible
And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
When the water in the skin was gone, she left the boy under one of the bushes.

International Standard Version
Eventually, the water in the leather bottle ran out, so she placed the child under one of the bushes.

NET Bible
When the water in the skin was gone, she shoved the child under one of the shrubs.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
When the water in the container was gone, she  put the boy under one of the bushes.

Jubilee Bible 2000
And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under a tree.

King James 2000 Bible
And the water was used up in the skin, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.

American King James Version
And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.

American Standard Version
And the water in the bottle was spent, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And when the water in the bottle was spent, she cast the boy under one of the trees that were there.

Darby Bible Translation
And the water was exhausted from the flask; and she cast the child under one of the shrubs,

English Revised Version
And the water in the bottle was spent, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.

Webster's Bible Translation
And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.

World English Bible
The water in the bottle was spent, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.

Young's Literal Translation
and the water is consumed from the bottle, and she placeth the lad under one of the shrubs.
This post was last modified: 07-11-2015, 11:07 PM by khadeejah. Edit Reason: typo


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07-11-2015, 09:15 PM #8
Thunderian
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(07-11-2015, 09:06 PM)khadeejah Wrote:  Oddly enough, there is no other bible translation that I read that implies "helps"  The majority of them say "cast," "put," "placed" and "placeth"    One even says "shoved!"   I can see these words conveying a "less energetic"  meaning of "cast", (well accept for "shoved").  But they certainly don't convey the meaning of "help."

The point is that she didn't fling her child under a bush.  Put or placed is a better translation.

If you're trying to make it out that Ishmael was an infant, you'll have to try harder.  No mother is going to throw her child anywhere.  A reasonable reading of the text would show that, whatever the wording, Hagar left Ishmael in the shade of a shrub.
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07-11-2015, 10:31 PM #9
khadeejah
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(07-11-2015, 09:15 PM)Thunderian Wrote:  
(07-11-2015, 09:06 PM)khadeejah Wrote:  Oddly enough, there is no other bible translation that I read that implies "helps"  The majority of them say "cast," "put," "placed" and "placeth"    One even says "shoved!"   I can see these words conveying a "less energetic"  meaning of "cast", (well accept for "shoved").  But they certainly don't convey the meaning of "help."

The point is that she didn't fling her child under a bush.  Put or placed is a better translation.

If you're trying to make it out that Ishmael was an infant, you'll have to try harder.  No mother is going to throw her child anywhere.  A reasonable reading of the text would show that, whatever the wording, Hagar left Ishmael in the shade of a shrub.

Okay, how about this regarding the first verse in question:  The interpreters bible (online text accessible HERE)  states that:


14. The original reading of putting it on her shoulder, along with the child the
Hebrew of which is awkward was "and put the child upon her shoulder." The present
text is due to RP, attempting to harmonize the story with the representation of P that
Ishmael was fourteen years old when Isaac was born (17:24-25; 21:5)

I'm not sure who RP is but I think P stands for "priestly." They taught us in 3rd grade Catholic school, that the first five books of the OT consisted of bits and parts from four different sources.  I didn't question why those sources often contradicted with one another until many years later When I started coming back to my fitrah (natural instinct).


Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “No one is born except upon natural instinct, then his parents turn him into a Jew or Christian or Magian. As an animals produces their young with perfect limbs, do you see anything defective?” Abu Huraira said, “Recite the verse if you wish: Direct your face toward the religion, inclining to truth, the nature of Allah upon which He has created the people. No change should there be in the creation of Allah. That is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know.” (30:30)
Source: Sahih Bukhari 1292, Sahih Muslim 2658


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07-12-2015, 12:21 AM #10
khadeejah
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(07-11-2015, 09:15 PM)Thunderian Wrote:  The point is that she didn't fling her child under a bush.  Put or placed is a better translation.

If you're trying to make it out that Ishmael was an infant, you'll have to try harder. 

Actually the point is that there is a discrepancy regarding Ishmael's age.  Do you agree?