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If you are a Muslim, can you please help me understand this...


07-10-2015, 03:28 PM #1
sPEktrall
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I guess I will get right into the heart of the matter...

Ok, here it goes... What I still don't quite understand is how Muslims can cite select passages in the Bible to support their claim that the Jesus of Christianity taught the same thing as the Jesus of the Quaran(contending the two holy books are compatible), and then, in the next breath, go ahead and say(acknowledge) the very book they just referenced is ultimately unreliable, corrupted, and gushing with errors.  It doesnt make sense and here is why... Your entire argument presupposes that the passages you just used from a book you hold to be riddled with error, deceit, and flat out lies can actually be relied on for truth.  In fact, the heart of your contention, that Biblical Jesus is the Jesus of the Quaran depends on the passages you use being reliable, being true.  This is why I believe that any Muslim which tries to use the Bible to show Christians that their Quaran got Jesus right has already defeated themselves in any argument...

What is the point in using the scripture of a book that you claim to be illegitimate, erroneous, and ultimately fictitious in attempting to establish that the Quaran contains the pure untampered words of God, and not the Bible?  I dont think it can make sense in any way, which is why one can only logically believe that the Bible is true, or the Quaran is true, but not both simultaneously.  If you hold the Quaran as truth then you cant use the Bible, the very book you believe to be untrustworthy to support your claims, because its self defeating.  It is a self defeating endeavor..

The Quaran teaches that Christ wasnt crucified, that he wasnt the atoning sacrifice for mankind, that he didnt die for the sins of the world.  Biblically speaking, this is the spirit of Antichrist.  It is what the book of 1 John warns about, that many deceivers have come into the world, how the spirit of Antichrist can masquerade a counterfeit Christ, yet still ultimately deny and distort his deity.  If you remove the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, if you take out the crucifixion then you are left with a world without hope, no ransom for sin.  Atoning for mans sin is the entire purpose of why the levticial priesthood was instituted, which is a central theme in the OT.  In no way can it be viewed as a mistake of the author...      

The entire Old Testament foreshadows the person and work of Jesus Christ through the cross, the ultimate atoning sacrifice that the levitcal priesthood symbolically bears witness to.  The book of Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and every other OT book after Moses centered around sacrifices, of atonement, of the blood shed, which were all typologies of Christs inevitable work.  If you are a Muslim then how do you ignore that the entire Old Testament system foreshadowed atonement of sin through sacrifice, through blood shed, through penal substitution, through death of a living creature to somehow give life to another?   It is very clear even in the OT that the Christ was to be crucified, that he was to be the atonement for sin, that his blood was to be shed.  How do you reconcile the fact that the entire OT referenced his crucifixion, how do you reconcile this to the Quaran's account of Christ where he didnt even die on the cross?  Then Paul's writings and the entire NT after the gospels said he DIED for sins.  

If you are a Muslim and hold to your account of Jesus(through the Quaran) then you have to eventually admit that the problem with the Bible is more serious than just minor errors and unreliable translations...     How can it be seen as anything other than one gravely fictitious text when applying it to what the Quaran says?   Your own text when comparison to the Bible wont allow for any other conclusion if you want to be truly consistent...  The Bible has to be flawed beyond any ability to reconcile it to your own beliefs, it has to be flawed to the extent that it cant be given any merit by an truly learned and reasonable Muslim...  So, why use the Bible to substantiate your view of Jesus and how its compatible to the Quaran?  Why use it to try and prove Biblical Jesus is the same Jesus of the Quaran?       If you deny the crucifixion then you deny the ENTIRE OT, ALL OF PAUL'S WRITINGS, even Mark, John, Matthew, and Luke.  They are either liars, or they made a mistake, but its illogical to conclude they ALL made a mistake considering the entire OT and every other NT book speaks of atoning sacrifice, the bloodshed, the death of Christ.... The two books simply cannot be reconciled in any way if critically scrutinized, and that is truth. 
This post was last modified: 07-10-2015, 03:37 PM by sPEktrall.

Prov 15:7 The lips of the wise disperse knowledge: but the heart of the foolish doeth not so.
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07-10-2015, 03:46 PM #2
Scimitar
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Do you know how to critique a work in the first instance?

do you even understand what "critique" is?

These may sound like basic questions, but you have to understand that this is the process by which everyone who reads a work, a paper or book has to critique it - by using the work, paper or book itself to see if it holds up to its own claims.

That is critique.

In relation to your NT, the critique (not just by myself) but by plenty of Muslims and non-Muslims all come to the conlusion that it is a work of elaborate fiction mixed with some historical truths... this does not make it a book of truths when the work itself is highly compromised and no amount of "revision" can make it stand alone in a better light because "alternative versions" of it place it in direct conflict of the other versions themselves.

I may ask, which "bible version" is closer to the truth? and Why are there so many conflicting versions?

And how would you prefer me to "CRITIQUE" your holy book? What method should I employ? if not the best method available to human intellect?

The integrity of the NT is known to be compromised - thus a critique of it is wholly justified,

Scimi
This post was last modified: 07-10-2015, 03:52 PM by Scimitar.

Out beyond ideas
of wrong-doing,


and right-doing,

there is a field...

...I'll meet you there.
€



Jalaluddin Rumi
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07-10-2015, 03:53 PM #3
sPEktrall
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Everyone is capable of critique, you dont necessarily need the critique of someone with a masters degree to point out the elephant in the room that everyone wants to ingore..

It comes down to what I said in the OP and this...

Either the OT prophets and NT authors were bold liars, or, their scribe material was faulty and unreliable despite being sincere people.  If I was Muslim, I would be forced to conclude they were flat out liars, but then I have to  conclude nothing they say is reliable, because they are liars, thus nothing they say can be used for reproof.  

The theme of atonement is too consistent to conclude they ALL were sincere, but had genuine errors in their writings, which is why I would be forced to believe they lied.  This is the only conclusion that makes logical sense...
This post was last modified: 07-10-2015, 03:57 PM by sPEktrall.

Prov 15:7 The lips of the wise disperse knowledge: but the heart of the foolish doeth not so.
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07-10-2015, 03:59 PM #4
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Well, you're not a Muslim and so, you are being highly presumptious Smile

Nice try bro, The elephant in this room is you.

I tell you why.

You are using assumption to make your point - which is highly illogical of you.

I work on intellectual premise and my method (like countless others who are both Muslim and no Muslim alike) work on the same intellectual premise - CRITIQUE.

Bro, do you even know what the critical method is? To critique a work to see if it holds up contextually? whether it contradicts itself? whether there are later edits such as interpolations in scripture? fabrications? etc? whether the author has blundered up or stayed true to the essence of the work? etc etc etc

See, I cannot critique your holy book in the first instance by using another - I can only do that by studying your holy book.

My bias is not the Qur'an. I concluded that the NT was a falsified doctrine before I ever truly studied the Qur'an.

Why do you have a problem with that? I don't understand.

When I critique, this does not mean in the sense of being negative or derogatory. Instead, it refers to a way of approaching other peoples' ideas - to question, to evaluate, to consider the accuracy and validity of ideas and information.

Your job, as a proponent for Christianity, is to question and evaluate these different perspectives, and, in doing so, develop and support your own position (which may be different from mine).

We leave it to the casual observer who is interested in the work to decide whose analysis is stronger.

Critique means to evaluate: what are the strengths and weaknesses of an idea, response, framework, theory? What are the useful elements; what are the problems? What are the competing perspectives? What could be better supported? What is to be rejected? and so forth.

In the case of the New Testament, the same critical process is to be employed. No book no matter how holy it is claimed to be, can be exempted from the critical process.

This is method bro. It's really as simple as that. A method to know if said work can be trusted... or not.

Now, I have a question for you.

How else would you have me critique your scripture? I'd like you to answer this honestly.

Scimi

Out beyond ideas
of wrong-doing,


and right-doing,

there is a field...

...I'll meet you there.
€



Jalaluddin Rumi
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07-10-2015, 04:03 PM #5
sPEktrall
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The NT  is falsified doctrine, you say, meaning you believe the authors were liars, or sincere, yet awful scribes?

Prov 15:7 The lips of the wise disperse knowledge: but the heart of the foolish doeth not so.

07-10-2015, 04:16 PM #6
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Bro, I studied the canon history, and know it is a pragamtic approach to mithraic paganism - I know this because I not only studied the NT but also its exegetes and its history from the comparatives.

You'll find that most here agree with me on the premise that the bible is a false doctrine, that constantine was a pagan who interpolated his own mithraic pagan idealisms of trinity into the canon.

You are in denial of this fact, and your arguments on all the VC/VF forums have never been convincing to anyone because your "evangelical" nature is in direct contradiction of "intellectual dissemination" of truth.

Thus you are approaching your propagations from a preconceived bias unlike me who actually picked up the NT in order to see if it contained a truth I could live with. I found it to be in want, and upon closer scrutiny found it wholly contradictory with interpolations and pragmatic approaches which make mince meat of the idea which even Jesus pbuh himself supported "HEAR O ISRAEL, YOUR LORD, GOD, IS ONE".

Your mental gymnastics make a complete mockery of your own understanding because your bias ignores the very fact that Jesus always referred to himself as Son of Man.

Not only that - I have entire thread on this and the previous forums which explain the pelthora of problems within the NT and many members of the forum(s) who are not Christians anymore have supported and even applauded my intellectual approach to your scripture, they are now more ardent than ever in believing that the NT is a corruption of the first commandment. That God is 1.

Now. I've answered your questions, and you have only dodged mine (as usual)

I ask you again Spek,

How else would you have me critique your scripture? I'd like you to answer this honestly.

Scimi

Out beyond ideas
of wrong-doing,


and right-doing,

there is a field...

...I'll meet you there.
€



Jalaluddin Rumi
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07-10-2015, 04:28 PM #7
Tarikko
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Spektrall we can prove the Bible has been corrupted by resorting to the Bible itself.

You can say we are really picky when it comes to the Bible, however, we DO NOT discredit it entirely.

Like the Hadiths we compare it to the Quran... and if it conforms we hold it true.
This post was last modified: 07-10-2015, 07:36 PM by Tarikko.


“The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped round this man (Muhammad) are disgraceful to ourselves only.”


― Thomas Carlyle, On Heroes, Hero Worship and the Heroic in History





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07-10-2015, 04:36 PM #8
sPEktrall
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Actually, you didn't answer my last question.

Do you believe that the NT authors were deceivers/liars, or that they were just poor scribes that ultimately provided unreliable work?   

As ironic as it sounds though, you are only proving my point in the OP when you continue to point out glaring problems in the Bible and how numerous they are...  The more problems you point out the more it proves how illogical and truly self defeating it is for Muslims to continue to use the Bible at all, espcecially after all the problems they find and acknowledge...   It demonstrates double mindedness and hypocrisy, it shows the illogical nature of using a book one acknowledges to be unreliable and falsified despite all the problems found and continued to be pointed out.  I'm guessing you have discovered a great handful of problems with the Bible and you continue to point them out?  

Quote:How else would you have me critique your scripture? I'd like you to answer this honestly.


I want you to point out every error the Bible has, honestly(no joke) and this is how I want you to critique the Bible... You will come to see that in doing so, when all these glaring problems add up, it will only show how crazy it truly is for you and other Muslims to continue to still use segments in the Bible, especially after revealing how flawed(unreliable) you truly believe it to be....In doing this it will only show how truly illegitimate and unreliable you believe it is, thus proving the absurdity mentioned in my original point.
This post was last modified: 07-10-2015, 04:50 PM by sPEktrall.

Prov 15:7 The lips of the wise disperse knowledge: but the heart of the foolish doeth not so.
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07-10-2015, 04:38 PM #9
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Ok, in sha Allah, I will do this on Sunday, because it will be EPIC Smile

And you will be forced to eat your own words Smile

Are you sure you want me to do this Spek? You already know how thorough I am with my work.

Well, you made your bed... on shaky ground bro. I just hope you have the courage to lay down in it.

Scimi

Out beyond ideas
of wrong-doing,


and right-doing,

there is a field...

...I'll meet you there.
€



Jalaluddin Rumi
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07-10-2015, 04:39 PM #10
sPEktrall
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Dude, do you even get your proving my point by me asking you to point out all the errors?

Prov 15:7 The lips of the wise disperse knowledge: but the heart of the foolish doeth not so.