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Paul Bait


10-11-2016, 10:19 AM #1
damien50
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I believe it is pertinent, insightful even to have a blend of members that either believe the words of Paul or disbelieve to varied extents.  Creating a place where his specific writings can be discussed in relation to the rest of the bible in a civil manner is my intention.



Caution
https://youtu.be/NcNNdO64IqQ
This post was last modified: 10-11-2016, 10:45 AM by damien50.

The Continuation of the Truth

Isaiah 55:8-9 KJV For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord . [9] For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
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10-11-2016, 10:44 AM #2
damien50
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Double
This post was last modified: 10-11-2016, 10:45 AM by damien50.

The Continuation of the Truth

Isaiah 55:8-9 KJV For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord . [9] For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
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10-11-2016, 11:43 AM #3
Vytas
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Lol i was thinking on creating something similar and put on myself heavy burden to write article...Stupid me.  Perhaps Bit by bit would be better and more comfortable... This post will be for KM but everyone feel free to kill me...

Lets start with some classics : Romans 5

5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

What the hell is he rambling about? If any of this contradicts with what Jesus said himself? References from Jesus about his death which comes to mind...
Luke 11:29-32
John 2:19
John 14:6

He defeated death and death is sin, by his sinless life his sacrifice is enough, And he rose up from the dead so we stupid creatures understand better that He really did what he did, it was kind of illustration of victory over death and encouragement that He is available for us...It really requires only common sense to understand that Paul is right here...People say where bible says Jesus is God..everywhere every line screams it...From Tree of life in Eden (yes it can be) to Revelations where we will become His nation.
Can man live a sinless life?
Can man be connection between man and God
Can man rose from the dead
Can man death account for other man sin?
Only if you think Christianity is big stupid lie you can dismiss it, but there is no need to talk about it at all then...otherwise you have to ignore truth on purpose...No one ever explained meaning of Jesus death and what it means to us better when Paul did here... Anyways if you think he is lying lol or he is wrong lets talk...

Truth is precious it's guarded by God
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10-11-2016, 12:00 PM #4
Lady
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I like the potential this thread has for dissection. 
How about we each take a verse(s) from the passage in Romans 5 that Vytas posted and bring what we can for posting here? 
It would be a way to increase knowledge as we draw from each other's perspectives and result of study. If no one else wants to do this, well, that's ok, I will just add my post anyway.

I am interested in Romans 5:20.   Smile
This post was last modified: 10-11-2016, 12:06 PM by Lady.

 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.  Jeremiah 31:3
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10-11-2016, 12:03 PM #5
Vytas
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I remember when i posted this video first time i got only one feedback, that preacher is criminal...Criminal or not his gift to explain things is just too good...For those who find that book confusing please watch...




Truth is precious it's guarded by God
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10-11-2016, 12:10 PM #6
Artful Revealer
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One of the great merits of Christianity's perversion by the Protestant Reformation, is the alleged Pauline doctrine of Sola Fide which states that Faith doesn't require Works for salvation, a clever Kabbalist manipulation of Paul's words and probably what the largely Protestant GOP in the US predicates the justifications of their actions on.  

Paul never referred to "Works" as deeds in general, but specifically the "Works of the Law".

In before the Faith vs Works debate.

Faith receives, love gives. No one will be able to receive without faith. No one will be able to give without love. Because of this, in order that we may indeed receive, we believe, and in order that we may love, we give, since if one gives without love, he has no profit from what he has given. He who has received something other than the Lord is still a Hebrew. - Gospel of Philip

10-11-2016, 12:26 PM #7
Lady
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Video at 11:00...the Bridegroom and the Lost Sheep explanation is clearer than I've ever heard due to understanding the details of traditional marriage laws that existed in B.C. Israel.
Thanks, Vytas.
This post was last modified: 10-11-2016, 12:45 PM by Lady.

 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.  Jeremiah 31:3
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10-11-2016, 12:28 PM #8
Lady
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(10-11-2016, 12:10 PM)Artful Revealer Wrote:  One of the great merits of Christianity's perversion by the Protestant Reformation, is the alleged Pauline doctrine of Sola Fide which states that Faith doesn't require Works for salvation, a clever Kabbalist manipulation of Paul's words and probably what the largely Protestant GOP in the US predicates the justifications of their actions on.  

Paul never referred to "Works" as deeds in general, but specifically the "Works of the Law".

In before the Faith vs Works debate.
Hey you, where is your source?   Big Grin

 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.  Jeremiah 31:3
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10-11-2016, 12:48 PM #9
damien50
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Dissect as you will as there are no specific guidelines yet I would ask that we refrain from insults, accusations against theism, mental gymnastics and anything else that hinders the conversation on individuals within. 

I started the thread because of the convo about headwear and the historical and social aspect that led Paul to rebuke the church of Corinth over this particular matter.

I'm fine with trinity talk, or anything else as it relates to Paul in scripture.  Just be nice.

I'll contribute when some detractors enter the fray.

The Continuation of the Truth

Isaiah 55:8-9 KJV For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord . [9] For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
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10-11-2016, 01:51 PM #10
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Paul was a warrior in the field in intellect.  He is a highly trained intellectual and God weaponized him for defeating the logic and doctrine of the Jews and Greeks.  The Gospel is not a mostly "intellectual" matter.  It is more of a heart matter and a spirit matter above all.  But it is a fact that as humans with finite minds, we are by necessity required to use our minds to find truth and the mind cannot be turned off.  The spirit, on the other hand, can go dead, and turn off.  It is supressed by the flesh, which is always present, and it's needs always at the forefront.

In a lost world, the mind is the tactical battlefield at large, where truth is fresh ammo.  Truth does little good to an army with no hope, however which is where an appeal the spirit comes in.

I do believe that Pauline literature is true but am not so sure it is Holy and perfectly "god breathed".    Paul states both prophecy, and opinion, and uses such heavy cultural metaphor at times as to render some texts as almost incapable of being applied to the present day.  Since we cannot really get into the  minds of a legitimate Ephesian, for example, we cannot really understand what Paul was saying to Timothy.  Or, in other words, since we cannot actually feel or see what it was like to be a woman in the first century church, it is probably inappropriate to create church dogma on the nature of women pastors based on Paul's stance against it in the early church.  Some of his arguments are based on ancient principle, but not so much of it that we can trace the context of every passage to a timeless principle. 

Paul was the top overseer of various churches, and we are not members of those churches, yet for some reason we act as if his words are pastoral oversight of our own churches.

I think anyone that regards the Reformation as having a negative effect, or Sola Fide having a negative effect, I think they should balance that against the times that they lived in and the church corruption that they were fighting.  Sola Fide is much more toward the truth that were the Catholic rites that were imposed on the reformers.

See this book, I highly recommend it.
[/url]The Unquenchable Flame: Discovering the Heart of the Reformation
[url=https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_2_10?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=unquenchable+flame&sprefix=unquenchab%2Caps%2C173]
Apr 1, 2010
by Michael Reeves and Mark Dever

It's all about the measuring rod we try to use for salvation.... salvaiton by [insert ideal].  Faith cannot be measured or observed except by some observable "work" whether that be an act of kindness or simply a hug or word of encouragement.  Even a mean facial expression or hand gesture could be considered an evil work in my opinion.

I always thought that the measure of a man was learning how to take responsibility for himself and his actions. When did the act of fellatio become the decider?
- - TheFallenAlchemist

The world has lost the power to blush over its vice; the Church has lost her power to weep over it.
- - Leonard Ravenhill
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