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Biblical proof to refute hell as a place of eternal torment


06-27-2015, 10:44 PM #1
Todd
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This thread is sidebar thread that is coming out the "Is Hell a necessary evil?" thread

Let’s start at the fall of Adam.  Adam is given the commandment not to eat of the tree of knowledge.  When given this commandment God tells him what the consequence of disobedience is. 

Genesis 2:15
15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
The consequence of sin is death.  No mention of eternal torment or hellfire.  It also clearly states that Adam will die the day the eats the fruit.  We know Adam did not die physically on that day.  The Death that is spoken of is spiritual death, not physical.

The idea that this death is spiritual not physical is confirmed in Ephesians 2

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are savedWink

Verse 4 states we are saved by grace.  Saved from what?  Saved from being Dead in Sins.  For the Christian this is a past condition, that we have been saved from.  For the unbeliever it is a present condition, not a potential future condition.  We are not saved from Hell.  We are saved from power of sin, which is spiritual death.

Further is Genesis 3 God further describes the consequence of Adam’s sin.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat ofit all the days of thy life; 18 thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return

No mention of eternal torment or suffering in hell.  If that is the case why did God leave that out?  Was the sin that Adam committed not enough to deserve Hell?  Let’s take a look at another case in Genesis where the first murder is recorded in the Bible.  Surely if anyone deserves eternal torment in Hell it would be a murder. 

Genesis 4 :10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground. 11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother’s blood from thy hand; 12 when thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. 13 And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. 14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me. 15 And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.


Yet again no mention of eternal torment in Hell.  Look for yourself at two other distinct examples of God’s wrath and judgement against the wicked:  The flood of Noah and Sodom and Gomorrah.  In either case there is never any mention of eternal torment in hell. 

I have yet to find a description of eternal torment in the OT.   If the eternal fate of a significant portion of humanity is eternal torment in Hell, why is God silent about it for 4000 years?

If eternal torment in hell is real that would mean God’s anger and wrath is unlimited.  So what does the Bible say about God’s wrath and anger?

Micah 7: 18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy. 19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.

Psalm 103:7 The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.  9 He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever

If eternal torment is not God’s will what is his will for the unbeliever?

1 Timothy 2: 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

In the Lord’s prayer Jesus taught us to pray “Thy kingdom come, thy will be done”.  Did Jesus teach us to pray in faith something that will not happen.  Is God not capable of fulfilling his will?

How is it that anyone could think man’s free will is greater than God’s will?

In John 12:32 Jesus said he would draw all men to him.  The greek word translated “draw”,  comes from the same root word that means to drag.  

Where did the concept that salvation can only be accepted in this lifetime come from?  Someone please show me a scripture that says the invitation for salvation and restoration is taken away after physical death in this age.

Colossians 1:16 for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 and he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 and, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Did Christ die for just the sins of only those who believe?

I John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:2 and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

This is just a start…I have much more.

I also suspect that the “Hell believers” will come back with scriptures they claim gives support to hell as an eternal place of torment.  At that time I will show how the English Translations they use are inaccurate and not faithful to the original Greek and Hebrew text. 


The English Translations we use today were created after Christianity was made the official religion of Rome and Pagan concepts were blended with Christianity.  The majority of early church leaders and writers advocated universal reconciliation.  Hell was a Northern European Pagan concept that infiltrated the Church.  English Bible translations contain the errors because the translators were blinded by doctrine and dogma of the church that ingrained them with the belief of Hell as eternal torment.

Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;

And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did to one of these my brethren -- the least -- to me ye did
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07-09-2015, 10:03 AM #2
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First and foremost I find it contradictory that you will try to refute any scriptural evidence from a bible believer about the existence of hell and some of the other topics when your whole post is based on what you believe is scriptural evidence against the existence of hell.   Why is it that your use of scripture is the end all be all for proof and nothing else scripturally is?  Are you afraid that someone might open your eyes?  Someone might dispel your ignorance to scripture?   Are you afraid that you dedicated yourself to some internal and possibly external ignorance about the bible and any hatred towards it?  Not to mention so many people will take quotes from the bible and not only read them out of context but also not pieced them together from either quotes earlier in the same book, or even piece them together with quotes later on in the same book or even another book within the bible.  Here is my proof of hell, my proof that faith alone will not save you, my proof that salvation is not just granted to believers but to all.
Lets begin with faith and salvation
Luke 13:4-5 “or those eighteen upon whom the tower of Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who dwelt in Jerusalem?  I tell you, No; but unless you repent you will likewise perish”
Jesus is very clear in saying to his listeners that they have it within themselves to change their fate.  They are headed for death and damnation, but He tells them they can choose to repent and avoid that fate.  In other words, Jesus clearly believes that these people have free will.  If they did not have free will, they could not change their fate, and if God has already predetermined their fate, then why would Jesus tell them they can change their fate?
1 Timothy 2:3-4 “This is good and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, Who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”
This is irrefutable proof that God wants all to be saved.  It doesn’t say that God only wants the elect to be saved, but rather “all men”.  If God wants all men to be saved, then He certainly does not predestine any to hell.  Also if God wants all men to be saved, and man does have free will to oppose God’s will, then all men are predestined for Heaven.  Yet no unbeliever would say that all men are among the elect.  Which means that this particular belief among non-believers is highly inconsistent with the word of God.
Furthermore while the bible truly is the word of God inspired by saints, not all religion is based on scripture alone.  All of the word of God was at one time passed on orally….Sacred tradition.  Eventually Sacred tradition was written down….this became sacred scripture, which is written tradition.  However scripture itself tells us that not all of the things Jesus said and did was written down.   Here is what Paul says about tradition 2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter”.  Traditions are taught by word of mouth in other words oral tradition , and traditions taught by letter.  Traditions which they are being told to “stand firm and hold to”.  Sacred scripture and Sacred Tradition
1 Corinthinns 11:2 “ I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the tradition even as I have delivered them to you.”  The Corinthians are being commended by Paul because they maintain the traditions he passed onto them.  Sacred scripture and sacred tradition.
I have more but this should do.
The old adage of once saved always saved is false and here is proof of that, not to mention God does not just save unbelievers.   Furthermore Jesus’s death on the cross would be meaningless if there was no hell or eternal damnation, therefore contradicting the whole point of Christianity.  Jesus died on the cross to save all of humanity from their sins.  This does not mean that we can sin over and over and never have to worry about anything.  We have to constantly be doing good works and acts of repentance for our sins.  The bible is full of passages that either directly or indirectly contradict the doctrine of once saved always saved
Romans 11:17-23 “but if some of the branches were broken off [the Jews], and you, a wild olive shoot [the Gentiles], were grafted  in their place  to share the richness of the olive tree [Jesus Christ], do not boast over the branches….For if  God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you….Note the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you provided you continue in His kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”
Paul is talking about how salvation has to come to the Gentiles, while many of the Jews have rejected it.  And He makes it very clear that once you have been grafted into Christ, you must “continue in His kindness”, or you can also be cut off.  So even after you’ve been saved, you can still be cut off from Jesus Christ.
Here is another scripture passage
Luke 23:43 “He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you today you will be with me in Paradise.
Lets consider some things about the thief on the cross: 1. He maybe died before the Christian age began.  Jesus had not risen so baptism was not yet valid.  2. In the original Greek there is no punctuation or comma or period as used in English, so we don’t know if Jesus is referring to what He says “today”  and that eventually the thief will be in Heaven, or if the thief is going to be in Heaven “today”  3.  Jesus is God and can do whatever He wants and can grant exceptions.  4. Baptism is not an absolute necessity, but rather a normative necessity.  It is for those who are aware of God’s will.  For those that do not know His will, unchristian babies, or anyone that does not know of Him, we consider God a merciful God and we leave it to God to decide.  Just because we are bound by it does not mean that God is bound by it.
Now for scriptures that prove of hells existence
Matthew 7:13-14 “by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.  For the gate is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”
Jesus refers to the gates of hell as being opened wide and very easy to fall into.  It leads to our destruction and many fall into it.  Hell is a very real place.  Jesus teaches that the gates to Heaven are narrow and lead to life.  Very few will find it.
This does not mean that Heaven is not available to everyone , but it is a simply a choice we make.
According to scripture if one is in hell,” he shall be tormented with fire and sulfur…. The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest.”  (Revelation 14:11)
Matthew 25:41 this is an “everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels”
Jesus tell his listeners of Lazarus and the rich man, where the rich man dies, and is “existing in torment…he sees….calls out….”I am in anguish in this blazing fire”  Luke 16:19-31
As a further illustration of this, Jesus stated that hell is likened to Gehena.  This “Valley of Hinnom” was located southeast of Jerusalem, and was used as a garbage dump where trash and waste were continuously burned day and night in a large fire.  Jesus informs the listeners that hell is  like this, “where the maggot does not die, and fire is not put out”  Mark 9:42-48
It is the place where the wicked are sent, and from this ‘everlasting fire” (Matthew 18:8) will come “weeping and the gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 8:12)  Now if hell were “a place of rest in hope” as some non-believers may think then it is odd that Jesus would choose such contradictory illustrations to convey this.
Revelations 20 calls hell a “pool of fire……[where] they will be tormented day and night, forever and ever”—all who are not in the book of life.  So, if one’s name is in the book of life, one enters heaven (Revelation 21:27) If not in the book of life, then a literal hell awaits.








(06-27-2015, 10:44 PM)Todd Wrote:  This thread is sidebar thread that is coming out the "Is Hell a necessary evil?" thread

Let’s start at the fall of Adam.  Adam is given the commandment not to eat of the tree of knowledge.  When given this commandment God tells him what the consequence of disobedience is. 

Genesis 2:15
15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
The consequence of sin is death.  No mention of eternal torment or hellfire.  It also clearly states that Adam will die the day the eats the fruit.  We know Adam did not die physically on that day.  The Death that is spoken of is spiritual death, not physical.

The idea that this death is spiritual not physical is confirmed in Ephesians 2

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are savedWink

Verse 4 states we are saved by grace.  Saved from what?  Saved from being Dead in Sins.  For the Christian this is a past condition, that we have been saved from.  For the unbeliever it is a present condition, not a potential future condition.  We are not saved from Hell.  We are saved from power of sin, which is spiritual death.

Further is Genesis 3 God further describes the consequence of Adam’s sin.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat ofit all the days of thy life; 18 thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return

No mention of eternal torment or suffering in hell.  If that is the case why did God leave that out?  Was the sin that Adam committed not enough to deserve Hell?  Let’s take a look at another case in Genesis where the first murder is recorded in the Bible.  Surely if anyone deserves eternal torment in Hell it would be a murder. 

Genesis 4 :10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground. 11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother’s blood from thy hand; 12 when thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. 13 And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. 14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me. 15 And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.


Yet again no mention of eternal torment in Hell.  Look for yourself at two other distinct examples of God’s wrath and judgement against the wicked:  The flood of Noah and Sodom and Gomorrah.  In either case there is never any mention of eternal torment in hell. 

I have yet to find a description of eternal torment in the OT.   If the eternal fate of a significant portion of humanity is eternal torment in Hell, why is God silent about it for 4000 years?

If eternal torment in hell is real that would mean God’s anger and wrath is unlimited.  So what does the Bible say about God’s wrath and anger?

Micah 7: 18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy. 19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.

Psalm 103:7 The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.  9 He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever

If eternal torment is not God’s will what is his will for the unbeliever?

1 Timothy 2: 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

In the Lord’s prayer Jesus taught us to pray “Thy kingdom come, thy will be done”.  Did Jesus teach us to pray in faith something that will not happen.  Is God not capable of fulfilling his will?

How is it that anyone could think man’s free will is greater than God’s will?

In John 12:32 Jesus said he would draw all men to him.  The greek word translated “draw”,  comes from the same root word that means to drag.  

Where did the concept that salvation can only be accepted in this lifetime come from?  Someone please show me a scripture that says the invitation for salvation and restoration is taken away after physical death in this age.

Colossians 1:16 for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 and he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 and, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Did Christ die for just the sins of only those who believe?

I John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:2 and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

This is just a start…I have much more.

I also suspect that the “Hell believers” will come back with scriptures they claim gives support to hell as an eternal place of torment.  At that time I will show how the English Translations they use are inaccurate and not faithful to the original Greek and Hebrew text. 


The English Translations we use today were created after Christianity was made the official religion of Rome and Pagan concepts were blended with Christianity.  The majority of early church leaders and writers advocated universal reconciliation.  Hell was a Northern European Pagan concept that infiltrated the Church.  English Bible translations contain the errors because the translators were blinded by doctrine and dogma of the church that ingrained them with the belief of Hell as eternal torment.

07-09-2015, 05:33 PM #3
Todd
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(07-09-2015, 10:03 AM)guided by the holy spirit Wrote:  Why is it that your use of scripture is the end all be all for proof and nothing else scripturally is?  Are you afraid that someone might open your eyes?  Someone might dispel your ignorance to scripture?   Are you afraid that you dedicated yourself to some internal and possibly external ignorance about the bible and any hatred towards it? 
No quite... the opposite actually.  For 25 years I was a Christian who believed in the demonic doctrine of Hell as a place of eternal torment.  My ignorance of scripture is what caused me to accept the false doctrine of Hell.  

Quote:Luke 13:4-5 “or those eighteen upon whom the tower of Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who dwelt in Jerusalem?  I tell you, No; but unless you repent you will likewise perish”
Jesus is very clear in saying to his listeners that they have it within themselves to change their fate.  They are headed for death and damnation, but He tells them they can choose to repent and avoid that fate.  In other words, Jesus clearly believes that these people have free will.  If they did not have free will, they could not change their fate, and if God has already predetermined their fate, then why would Jesus tell them they can change their fate?
I agree that we have some ability to change our fate....but you are assuming that fate is ETERNAL TORMENT. Nothing in that scriptures proves Hell as eternal torment.

Quote:1 Timothy 2:3-4 “This is good and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, Who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”
This is irrefutable proof that God wants all to be saved.  It doesn’t say that God only wants the elect to be saved, but rather “all men”.  If God wants all men to be saved, then He certainly does not predestine any to hell.  Also if God wants all men to be saved, and man does have free will to oppose God’s will, then all men are predestined for Heaven.  Yet no unbeliever would say that all men are among the elect.  Which means that this particular belief among non-believers is highly inconsistent with the word of God.

So your are saying that man's free-will is more powerful than God's will?  where is the scripture for that assumption?

Quote:1 Corinthinns 11:2 “ I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the tradition even as I have delivered them to you.”  The Corinthians are being commended by Paul because they maintain the traditions he passed onto them.  Sacred scripture and sacred tradition.


What tradition are you talking about?   Most of the early Christian writers do not mention Hell as Eternal Torment.  In fact many of the early Christian writers taught universal reconciliation and there are almost no records of early christian writers attempting to refute universal reconciliation.  So I don't understand where you are going with the tradition argument.

Quote:
I have more but this should do.

Uhm no...you need to bring a lot more than those weak arguments.

Quote:Romans 11:17-23 “but if some of the branches were broken off [the Jews], and you, a wild olive shoot [the Gentiles], were grafted  in their place  to share the richness of the olive tree [Jesus Christ], do not boast over the branches….For if  God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you….Note the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you provided you continue in His kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”
This scripture is talking about the kingdom of God.  The kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom and it is here now.  This has nothing to do with heaven and hell.  How does this prove Hell as eternal torment.  

Quote:Paul is talking about how salvation has to come to the Gentiles, while many of the Jews have rejected it.  And He makes it very clear that once you have been grafted into Christ, you must “continue in His kindness”, or you can also be cut off.  So even after you’ve been saved, you can still be cut off from Jesus Christ.

Yeah I agree, but what does it have to do with Hell.  We are saved from the power of sin in this age.  You are making an assumption that the term salvation applies to being saved from Eternal Torment.  Show me scripture that proves we are saved from eternal torment, rather than being saved from the power of Sin!  

Quote:Luke 23:43 “He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you today you will be with me in Paradise.
Now for scriptures that prove of hells existence
Matthew 7:13-14 “by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.  For the gate is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”
Jesus refers to the gates of hell as being opened wide and very easy to fall into.  It leads to our destruction and many fall into it.  Hell is a very real place.  Jesus teaches that the gates to Heaven are narrow and lead to life.  Very few will find it.

]
What does this have to do with hell.  This is talking about destruction and life not Hell.  Again you are making an assumption that destruction equates to ETERNAL TORMENT.  Where is the proof of that?

Quote:l,” he shall be tormented with fire and sulfur…. The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest.”  (Revelation 14:11)
Do a word study on the original greek word translated "forever and ever"  The word is Eon.  It does not mean "forever".  It means "and age" or a "period of lasting time"  Torment is real but it is not ETERNAL.
Quote:Matthew 25:41 this is an “everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels”
Jesus tell his listeners of Lazarus and the rich man, where the rich man dies, and is “existing in torment…he sees….calls out….”I am in anguish in this blazing fire”  Luke 16:19-31
As a further illustration of this, Jesus stated that hell is likened to Gehena.  This “Valley of Hinnom” was located southeast of Jerusalem, and was used as a garbage dump where trash and waste were continuously burned day and night in a large fire.  Jesus informs the listeners that hell is  like this, “where the maggot does not die, and fire is not put out”  Mark 9:42-48
It is the place where the wicked are sent, and from this ‘everlasting fire” (Matthew 18:8) will come “weeping and the gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 8:12)  Now if hell were “a place of rest in hope” as some non-believers may think then it is odd that Jesus would choose such contradictory illustrations to convey this.
Revelations 20 calls hell a “pool of fire……[where] they will be tormented day and night, forever and ever”—all who are not in the book of life.  So, if one’s name is in the book of life, one enters heaven (Revelation 21:27) If not in the book of life, then a literal hell awaits.

Once again you are rely on English translations that were written after the Pagan concept of HELL were introduced into the Roman Church.  Every instance in the English were it says Forever and ever, should be correctly replaced with something like "for an age to come" or "for the age of ages"   Eon refers to time....time is part of creation.  Time is not part of eternity.  

There is not scripture, when read with the correct understanding of the original greek words, that points to Hell as an ETERNAL place of Torment.
This post was last modified: 07-09-2015, 05:37 PM by Todd.

Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;

And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did to one of these my brethren -- the least -- to me ye did

07-09-2015, 11:56 PM #4
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@Todd


Private interpretation of scripture is forbidden by the bible itself (2 St.Peter 1:20).

Some people misinterpret scripture to their own condemnation (2 St.Peter 3:16).

Ecclesiastes 1:15 "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite."


Our Lord Jesus Christ revealed that the road to Heaven is straight and narrow and few find it, while the road to Hell is wide and taken by most (St.Matthew. 7:13).

St.Matthew 7:13- “Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat.  How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life, and few there are that find it!”

St.Luke 13:24- “Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able.”

Scripture also teaches that almost the entire world lies in darkness, so much so that Satan is even called the “prince” (St.John 12:31) and “god” (2 Corinthians. 4:3) of this world.

1 St.John 5:19- “We know that we are of God, and the whole world is seated in wickedness.”

It’s the sad fact of history that most people in the world are of bad will and don’t want the truth.  That’s why almost the whole world lies in darkness and on the road to perdition.  This has been the case since the beginning.  It was the case when only eight souls (Noah and his family) escaped God’s wrath in the deluge that covered the entire earth, and when the Israelites rejected God’s law and fell into idolatry over and over again.

The truth is that for those who truly believe in God, accept His full truth (the Catholic Faith), don’t compromise it and want to do the right thing, it’s not hard to reach Heaven.  As Christ said, “My yoke is sweet and My burden light” (St.Matthew. 11:30).  The reason that so few make it is not because it’s that hard, but because they refuse to believe the simple and easy things He has revealed, and do the simple and easy things He has commanded.  Those who do what God wants and believe what He says realize that they are much happier than they were before.

But the sad truth is that almost all people are of bad will.  This is why the saints and Doctors of the Church have consistently taught only a very small percentage of people are saved.  In fact, the saints and Doctors of the Church, even during the ages of faith, taught that most adult Catholics are lost.

Saint Leonard of Port Maurice [A.D. 1676-1751], on the fewness of the saved: “After consulting all the theologians and making a diligent study of the matter, he [Suarez] wrote, ‘The most common sentiment which is held is that, among Christians [Catholics], there are more damned souls than predestined souls.’  Add the authority of the Greek and Latin Fathers to that of the theologians, and you will find that almost all of them say the same thing. This is the sentiment of Saint Theodore, Saint Basil, Saint Ephrem, Saint John Chrysostom. What is more, according to Baronius it was a common opinion among the Greek Fathers that this truth was expressly revealed to Saint Simeon Stylites and that after this revelation, it was to secure his salvation that he decided to live standing on top of a pillar for forty years, exposed to the weather, a model of penance and holiness for everyone.  Now let us consult the Latin Fathers. You will hear Saint Gregory saying clearly, “Many attain to faith, but few to the heavenly kingdom.” Saint Anselm declares, “There are few who are saved.” Saint Augustine states even more clearly, “Therefore, few are saved in comparison to those who are damned.”  The most terrifying, however, is Saint Jerome. At the end of his life, in the presence of his disciples, he spoke these dreadful words: “Out of one hundred thousand people whose lives have always been bad, you will find barely one who is worthy of indulgence.”

When Saint Leonard of Port Maurice uses the term “Christian,” he means Catholics, not heretics.  Saint Leonard is repeating the consistent teaching of the Fathers and Doctors: most adult Catholics (not even including the non-Catholic world) are lost.  If this was the sentiment about the salvation of Catholics in the ages of faith, what would they say today?  If you have trouble accepting the truths presented on vaticancatholic.com because “it’s just too hard to believe that this many people could be wrong or deceived,” consider the teaching of Our Lord and the saints above.  Consider how much more true the teaching on the fewness of the saved is today:

“Lucia found Jacinta sitting alone, still and very pensive, gazing at nothing.  ‘What are you thinking of, Jacinta?’  ‘Of the war that is going to come.  So many people are going to die.  And almost all of them are going to Hell.’” (Our Lady of Fatima, p. 94; p. 92 in some versions)

Jacinta of Fatima, who had visions of future events, said that of those who would die in World War II almost all of them would go to Hell.

Saint Anselm: “If thou wouldst be certain of being in the number of the elect, strive to be one of the few, not of the many.  And if thou wouldst be quite sure of thy salvation, strive to be among the fewest of the few… Do not follow the great majority of mankind, but follow those who enter upon the narrow way, who renounce the world, who give themselves to prayer, and who never relax their efforts by day or by night, that they may attain everlasting blessedness.” (Fr. Martin Von Cochem, The Four Last Things, p. 221.)

Irrefutable Biblical proof for Catholicism that can't even be addressed by James White!

 http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/c...Z9B1PlViko

07-10-2015, 09:43 AM #5
Todd
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Loyal the the Crown,

If you think you can convince me with your statements from your Catholic scholars, you are wasting your time.  

Please show me from the Bible, the evidence that there is a place called "Hell" that is ETERNAL TORMENT.  It's not there......Yet the scriptures that say God will reconcile ALL things to himself, are there.  

It's simply a case of doctrine being put on a higher pedestal than what the Bible actually says....

Colossians 1
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;  20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven

1 Timothy 4:10
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believer

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself

Romans 5:18 
So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men  (Note: it's the same "all men" that were condemned through Adam, that are justified by Christ.  "All men" is all men not some smaller subset)

Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;

And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did to one of these my brethren -- the least -- to me ye did

07-10-2015, 11:50 AM #6
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@Todd

You are deceived, of course Jesus died to save all men but not all men are saved. 

Apocalypse 14:11 "And the smoke of their torments shall ascend up for ever and ever: neither have they rest day nor night, who have adored the beast, and his image, and whoever receiveth the character of his name."

St.Luke 16:24 "And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame."

2 Thessalonians 1:9 "Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his power"

St.Matthew 25:46 "And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting."

Do you not realize there are consequences for sin? You blaspheme God by rejecting many articles of Faith, you are a puffed up, blind heretic who is a disgrace in God’s sight.  Unless you humble yourself, realize that you don’t understand the Catholic faith and that you need to learn, and embrace the true Catholic faith you will be lost.

Proverbs 14:12 "There is a way which seemeth just to a man: but the ends thereof lead to death."

St.Matthew 12:36 "But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment."


St. Ambrose (389): “Even the heretics appear to have Christ, for none of them denies the name of Christ; yet, anyone who does not confess all that pertains to Christ does in fact deny Christ.”

07-10-2015, 08:38 PM #7
Yahda
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@Todd- For a short while I didn't really believe in Hell as this place of torment, but as I begin to study hell I found it is a place you don't want to go. The torment is real, and extreme. I hate to post without the scriptures to back me up but not only does the Bible and other lost books give its location but it describes it in great detail. There are several stages of torment. I want to say 7, but some of the torments outside of torments is watching the righteous receive God's glory. It says the righteous will be looking at you as you suffer saying I'm glad I made the right choice, ( they are separated by the lake of fire " a great chasm Luke 16:26) and it says the unrighteousness will be looking at them receiving all God's glory thinking how could I not have believed.  The last level of torment which God considers the worst ( I don't see how considering what I read, but I guess it's the nail in the coffin so to say), is that while you are being tormented you will witness God, the one you didn't believe in, or refused to follow his laws.....you will be a witness to this great power at work. Hell is described as being so bad, that I don't want to get into what it says will occur. So bad that the " rich man" mentioned in Luke 16:19 said to Abraham can you send Lararus to warn my brothers. Abraham responded, they have Moses and the Prophets. He basically went on to say if they won't listen to Moses and the prophets there is no need to send someone from the dead.  On the other hand the righteous will experience the opposite state of hell. It's seven levels of "peace" can't think of the exact word but it's opposite of the 7 levels of torment. We all experience hell upon death. One, a state of peace, the other a state or torment until judgment when the unrighteousness will be thrown into the lake of the fire. Described also in Luke 16 :9 as an EVERLASTING DWELLING place. Sorry I don't have time to back up with scripture specifically the scriptures from the lost books....but just to give you all an idea......this about sums it up.
 Edited with scripture.
(06-27-2015, 10:44 PM)Todd Wrote:  This thread is sidebar thread that is coming out the "Is Hell a necessary evil?" thread

Let’s start at the fall of Adam.  Adam is given the commandment not to eat of the tree of knowledge.  When given this commandment God tells him what the consequence of disobedience is. 

Genesis 2:15
15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
The consequence of sin is death.  No mention of eternal torment or hellfire.  It also clearly states that Adam will die the day the eats the fruit.  We know Adam did not die physically on that day.  The Death that is spoken of is spiritual death, not physical.

The idea that this death is spiritual not physical is confirmed in Ephesians 2

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are savedWink

Verse 4 states we are saved by grace.  Saved from what?  Saved from being Dead in Sins.  For the Christian this is a past condition, that we have been saved from.  For the unbeliever it is a present condition, not a potential future condition.  We are not saved from Hell.  We are saved from power of sin, which is spiritual death.

Further is Genesis 3 God further describes the consequence of Adam’s sin.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat ofit all the days of thy life; 18 thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return

No mention of eternal torment or suffering in hell.  If that is the case why did God leave that out?  Was the sin that Adam committed not enough to deserve Hell?  Let’s take a look at another case in Genesis where the first murder is recorded in the Bible.  Surely if anyone deserves eternal torment in Hell it would be a murder. 

Genesis 4 :10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground. 11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother’s blood from thy hand; 12 when thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. 13 And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. 14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me. 15 And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.


Yet again no mention of eternal torment in Hell.  Look for yourself at two other distinct examples of God’s wrath and judgement against the wicked:  The flood of Noah and Sodom and Gomorrah.  In either case there is never any mention of eternal torment in hell. 

I have yet to find a description of eternal torment in the OT.   If the eternal fate of a significant portion of humanity is eternal torment in Hell, why is God silent about it for 4000 years?

If eternal torment in hell is real that would mean God’s anger and wrath is unlimited.  So what does the Bible say about God’s wrath and anger?

Micah 7: 18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy. 19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.

Psalm 103:7 The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.  9 He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever

If eternal torment is not God’s will what is his will for the unbeliever?

1 Timothy 2: 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

In the Lord’s prayer Jesus taught us to pray “Thy kingdom come, thy will be done”.  Did Jesus teach us to pray in faith something that will not happen.  Is God not capable of fulfilling his will?

How is it that anyone could think man’s free will is greater than God’s will?

In John 12:32 Jesus said he would draw all men to him.  The greek word translated “draw”,  comes from the same root word that means to drag.  

Where did the concept that salvation can only be accepted in this lifetime come from?  Someone please show me a scripture that says the invitation for salvation and restoration is taken away after physical death in this age.

Colossians 1:16 for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 and he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 and, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Did Christ die for just the sins of only those who believe?

I John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:2 and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

This is just a start…I have much more.

I also suspect that the “Hell believers” will come back with scriptures they claim gives support to hell as an eternal place of torment.  At that time I will show how the English Translations they use are inaccurate and not faithful to the original Greek and Hebrew text. 


The English Translations we use today were created after Christianity was made the official religion of Rome and Pagan concepts were blended with Christianity.  The majority of early church leaders and writers advocated universal reconciliation.  Hell was a Northern European Pagan concept that infiltrated the Church.  English Bible translations contain the errors because the translators were blinded by doctrine and dogma of the church that ingrained them with the belief of Hell as eternal torment.
This post was last modified: 07-11-2015, 01:43 AM by Yahda.

~Yahda

07-10-2015, 09:35 PM #8
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Short video on why Hell must be eternal:





also, hands down the best video on Hell:




07-10-2015, 10:48 PM #9
Todd
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?
(07-10-2015, 11:50 AM)Loyal To The Crown Wrote:  @Todd

You are deceived, of course Jesus died to save all men but not all men are saved. 

Apocalypse 14:11 "And the smoke of their torments shall ascend up for ever and ever: neither have they rest day nor night, who have adored the beast, and his image, and whoever receiveth the character of his name."

St.Luke 16:24 "And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame."

2 Thessalonians 1:9 "Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his power"

St.Matthew 25:46 "And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting."

Do you not realize there are consequences for sin? You blaspheme God by rejecting many articles of Faith, you are a puffed up, blind heretic who is a disgrace in God’s sight.  Unless you humble yourself, realize that you don’t understand the Catholic faith and that you need to learn, and embrace the true Catholic faith you will be lost.

Proverbs 14:12 "There is a way which seemeth just to a man: but the ends thereof lead to death."

St.Matthew 12:36 "But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment."


St. Ambrose (389): “Even the heretics appear to have Christ, for none of them denies the name of Christ; yet, anyone who does not confess all that pertains to Christ does in fact deny Christ.”

If you would study the bible for yourself instead of reguritate catholic dogma, you would learn that Aeon is the Greek word incorrectly translated as forever.  Aeon means a period or duration of time, an age.  Hell and torment is real but it only lasts for an age.  How long that age is, isn't clear, and of course I don't want to go there.  

The correct Greek word for eternity or forever is adios,  and the only place its used in the bible is to describe God himself.

No one has yet given me any proof from scripture, that hell is eternal.  No one has addressed, the scriptures that clearly state God will reconcile all things to himself.

Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;

And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did to one of these my brethren -- the least -- to me ye did

07-14-2015, 08:32 PM #10
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Combine Revelation 21:8 with Matthew 10:28.
"Destroy".
Done, next, please.