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Understanding the Godhead in the Bible


08-04-2016, 12:09 PM #1
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Christians declare that ‘Jesus Christ is God’. We are not saying that Jesus Christ is God the Father, for the Bible clearly states that He is not the Father but rather He is the Son. The word ‘God’ is not a name but a quality or substance or nature. When we say that Jesus Christ is God what we are really saying is that Jesus Christ has the quality, substance or nature of God. In other words, we are stating that He is deity or part of the eternal Godhead.

Gal 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

By nature idols are not gods. We affirm that Jesus Christ is God by nature.

In a given kingdom we may have a royalty comprising a king, a queen and a prince. This is not three royalties but one royalty. In such a kingdom the king speaking on behalf of that royalty may correctly say that there is no royalty besides that royalty.

Royalty is not a name. Royalty is a quality or substance or nature. No one can deny that the prince is royal for royalty begat him. The prince is subject to the king but that does not make him any less royal. The prince is equally royal to the king. Being subordinate to the king in a hierarchal sense he may refer to the king as My Royalty. Thereby we see that royalty can be subject to royalty. Royalty can be with royalty. Royalty can be at the right hand of royalty but that does not make two royalties in the kingdom.

The subjects of the kingdom or royalty would at times pay obeisance to the King, sometimes to the Queen and sometimes to the Prince. They are paying obeisance to three persons but does that mean they are paying obeisance to three different royalties? No, they are paying obeisance to one royalty.

The Godhead is made up of three persons. We do not worship three Gods. We worship one God or Godhead that comprises three persons. Like royalty the word ‘God’ is not a name but a quality or substance or nature. The three persons in the Godhead are all of the same divine substance or essence.

Is there hierarchy in the Godhead? The gospel accounts clearly speak of Jesus in a subordinate (not inferior) role to the Father while on earth for He did put on the form of a bondservant. Furthermore, 1 Cor 11:28 says ‘And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.’ This indicates hierarchy in the future. The mission of the Son on earth was planned long before the incarnation. It was the eternal purpose of the Father to send the Son (see Micah 5:2; Isa 53; John 3:13; 1 Pet 1:18-20; Rev 13:8). An eternal Father-Son relationship bespeaks of an implied eternal hierarchy inasmuch as the Father is eternally the Father of the Son, and the Son is eternally the Son of the Father.

Hierarchy does not negate or preclude Deity or Godhead. The equality of the Son with the Father is one of nature or essence and not of authority. By nature Jesus is God and no less divine than the Father to whom He is subject.

Can Jesus be God and yet call the Father ‘My God’? Indeed, for God is not a name but a quality or substance. Jesus is Deity or God and is subject to His Father who is Deity or God. He said that His Father is greater than Him (John 14:28) and hierarchically that is truly so but He also said that He and the Father are one (John 10:30) and both in nature and purpose that is truly so.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (John 1:1).

This is not saying that Jesus was the Father. Jesus who is Deity (God) was with Deity (God). God can be with God but that does not make two Gods just as the prince (royalty) being with the king (royalty) does not make two royalties in the kingdom.

John 5:17 -18 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

John 10:30-33 I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

John 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

The concept of God as Father having a unique Son was not acceptable to the Jews confronting Jesus. Whenever Jesus spoke of God as His Father they saw this as blasphemy as this made Him equal with God. By claiming God as His Father Jesus was essentially saying that He was of the same divine essence and nature as God the Father. He was claiming equality with God (not hierarchically but certainly in nature) and for this these Jews sought to kill Him.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
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08-04-2016, 12:27 PM #2
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So is Jesus(pbuh) on equal footing with with the Father and the Holy spirit?

Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahu alaihi wasalam) said:

"My similitude and that of the life of this world is that of a traveler who took a rest at mid-day under a shade of a tree and then left it."       (Ahmad, at-Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah and al-Hakim)

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08-04-2016, 12:38 PM #3
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(08-04-2016, 12:27 PM)Kung Fu Wrote:  So is Jesus(pbuh) on equal footing with with the Father and the Holy spirit?

What do you mean by 'equal footing'? If you read the whole thread the issue of equality is dealt with. The equality of the Son with the Father is one of nature or essence and not of authority. By nature Jesus is God and no less divine than the Father to whom He is subject.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
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08-04-2016, 12:41 PM #4
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Ther is no one like God according to scripture

Jeremiah 10:6 There is none like you, O Lord you are great and great is your name in might

1 Samuel 2:2 There is no one holy like the Lord

1 st chronicles 17:20 O Lord there is none like you nor is there any God besides you

Exodus 8:10 Ther is no one like the Lord our God

Exodus 9:14 For this time I will send all my plagues on you so that you may know that there is no one like me in all of the earth 

1st King 8:23 O Lord the God of Israel there is no one like you in the heavens above or on the earth below

Isaiah 46:9 For I am God and there is no one like me

Isaiah 43:11 I-I am the Lord your God and besides me THERE IS NO SAVIOR

~Yahda
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08-04-2016, 12:51 PM #5
Spottymycat
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Its fuzzy(well to me that is). But anyway is this Roman Catholic?

(08-04-2016, 12:09 PM)Overcomer Wrote:  
Christians declare that ‘Jesus Christ is God’. We are not saying that Jesus Christ is God the Father, for the Bible clearly states that He is not the Father but rather He is the Son. The word ‘God’ is not a name but a quality or substance or nature. When we say that Jesus Christ is God what we are really saying is that Jesus Christ has the quality, substance or nature of God. In other words, we are stating that He is deity or part of the eternal Godhead.

Gal 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

By nature idols are not gods. We affirm that Jesus Christ is God by nature.

In a given kingdom we may have a royalty comprising a king, a queen and a prince. This is not three royalties but one royalty. In such a kingdom the king speaking on behalf of that royalty may correctly say that there is no royalty besides that royalty.

Royalty is not a name. Royalty is a quality or substance or nature. No one can deny that the prince is royal for royalty begat him. The prince is subject to the king but that does not make him any less royal. The prince is equally royal to the king. Being subordinate to the king in a hierarchal sense he may refer to the king as My Royalty. Thereby we see that royalty can be subject to royalty. Royalty can be with royalty. Royalty can be at the right hand of royalty but that does not make two royalties in the kingdom.

The subjects of the kingdom or royalty would at times pay obeisance to the King, sometimes to the Queen and sometimes to the Prince. They are paying obeisance to three persons but does that mean they are paying obeisance to three different royalties? No, they are paying obeisance to one royalty.

The Godhead is made up of three persons. We do not worship three Gods. We worship one God or Godhead that comprises three persons. Like royalty the word ‘God’ is not a name but a quality or substance or nature. The three persons in the Godhead are all of the same divine substance or essence.

Is there hierarchy in the Godhead? The gospel accounts clearly speak of Jesus in a subordinate (not inferior) role to the Father while on earth for He did put on the form of a bondservant. Furthermore, 1 Cor 11:28 says ‘And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.’ This indicates hierarchy in the future. The mission of the Son on earth was planned long before the incarnation. It was the eternal purpose of the Father to send the Son (see Micah 5:2; Isa 53; John 3:13; 1 Pet 1:18-20; Rev 13:8). An eternal Father-Son relationship bespeaks of an implied eternal hierarchy inasmuch as the Father is eternally the Father of the Son, and the Son is eternally the Son of the Father.

Hierarchy does not negate or preclude Deity or Godhead. The equality of the Son with the Father is one of nature or essence and not of authority. By nature Jesus is God and no less divine than the Father to whom He is subject.

Can Jesus be God and yet call the Father ‘My God’? Indeed, for God is not a name but a quality or substance. Jesus is Deity or God and is subject to His Father who is Deity or God. He said that His Father is greater than Him (John 14:28) and hierarchically that is truly so but He also said that He and the Father are one (John 10:30) and both in nature and purpose that is truly so.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (John 1:1).

This is not saying that Jesus was the Father. Jesus who is Deity (God) was with Deity (God). God can be with God but that does not make two Gods just as the prince (royalty) being with the king (royalty) does not make two royalties in the kingdom.

John 5:17 -18 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

John 10:30-33 I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

John 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

The concept of God as Father having a unique Son was not acceptable to the Jews confronting Jesus. Whenever Jesus spoke of God as His Father they saw this as blasphemy as this made Him equal with God. By claiming God as His Father Jesus was essentially saying that He was of the same divine essence and nature as God the Father. He was claiming equality with God (not hierarchically but certainly in nature) and for this these Jews sought to kill Him.
This post was last modified: 08-04-2016, 01:13 PM by Spottymycat. Edit Reason: To add (well to me that is)
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08-04-2016, 01:48 PM #6
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By nature Jesus was a man, not God, so the royalty analogy doesn't really work.  He affirmed this by constantly referring to himself as "the son of man".  Granted, Jesus was not a fallen man, but the perfect example of a man 100% submitted to the will of God.  (oh no, I said it...Jesus was a "Muslim" Big Grin

There are passages in the Bible where others claim Jesus was the son of God, but he always referred to himself as the "son of man"  Why is that?   Maybe he was trying to combat the false notion that he was the literal son of God even before his death and crucifixion.  

In fact the one scripture I can find where Jesus actually addresses the issue of him being called the Son of God, he actually makes the case that others are also called the son of God.  Not exactly an argument you would expect from someone trying to convince others he was the unique, one and only, literal Son of God.

John 10:
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

When taken in context of the whole Bible, it's much more likely that the title "son of God" is a figurative expression and one that all believers (Jews, Christians and Muslims) should be attempting to live up to by following Jesus as the example.  

Does the Bible not say I should be imitating Jesus and that I should be trying to be like him?  Is the Bible saying I should be trying to be God?  I think not....

Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;

And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did to one of these my brethren -- the least -- to me ye did
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08-04-2016, 01:52 PM #7
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(08-04-2016, 12:38 PM)Overcomer Wrote:  What do you mean by 'equal footing'? If you read the whole thread the issue of equality is dealt with. The equality of the Son with the Father is one of nature or essence and not of authority. By nature Jesus is God and no less divine than the Father to whom He is subject.

Is he as a God equal to the Father who is also God?

How can one have the nature or essence of God but not have the authority of God?

Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahu alaihi wasalam) said:

"My similitude and that of the life of this world is that of a traveler who took a rest at mid-day under a shade of a tree and then left it."       (Ahmad, at-Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah and al-Hakim)

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08-04-2016, 02:45 PM #8
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(08-04-2016, 01:52 PM)Kung Fu Wrote:  
(08-04-2016, 12:38 PM)Overcomer Wrote:  What do you mean by 'equal footing'? If you read the whole thread the issue of equality is dealt with. The equality of the Son with the Father is one of nature or essence and not of authority. By nature Jesus is God and no less divine than the Father to whom He is subject.

Is he as a God equal to the Father who is also God?

How can one have the nature or essence of God but not have the authority of God?

Jesus is equal to the Father in essence and nature (He and the Father are one). He has the authority of God but not the authority of the Father (HIs Father is greater than Him). The prince is equal to the king in the state or essence of royalty, but the authority of the king is greater than the prince.

Inherent in the Trinity is the concept of hierarchy. There is hierarchy in the Godhead. Hence, we refer to the Father as the First Person of the Trinity, the Son as the Second Person of the Trinity and the Holy Spirirt as the Third Person of the Trinity.

I am fully aware that a Muslim will not accept the Trinity. It takes revelation from the Holy Spirit to understand the Bible. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned (1 Cor 2:13-14).

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
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08-04-2016, 02:48 PM #9
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(08-04-2016, 01:48 PM)Todd Wrote:  By nature Jesus was a man, not God, so the royalty analogy doesn't really work.  He affirmed this by constantly referring to himself as "the son of man".  Granted, Jesus was not a fallen man, but the perfect example of a man 100% submitted to the will of God.  (oh no, I said it...Jesus was a "Muslim" Big Grin

There are passages in the Bible where others claim Jesus was the son of God, but he always referred to himself as the "son of man"  Why is that?   Maybe he was trying to combat the false notion that he was the literal son of God even before his death and crucifixion.  

In fact the one scripture I can find where Jesus actually addresses the issue of him being called the Son of God, he actually makes the case that others are also called the son of God.  Not exactly an argument you would expect from someone trying to convince others he was the unique, one and only, literal Son of God.

John 10:
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

When taken in context of the whole Bible, it's much more likely that the title "son of God" is a figurative expression and one that all believers (Jews, Christians and Muslims) should be attempting to live up to by following Jesus as the example.  

Does the Bible not say I should be imitating Jesus and that I should be trying to be like him?  Is the Bible saying I should be trying to be God?  I think not....

So what happened when Jesus prayed this...

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

“I am free, no matter what rules surround me. 
If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them;
If I find them too obnoxious, I break them. 
I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for 
everything I do..."


Robert A. Heinlein

08-04-2016, 03:03 PM #10
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(08-04-2016, 02:48 PM)Renegade Wrote:  So what happened when Jesus prayed this...

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

read this --> Trinity Delusion

Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;

And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did to one of these my brethren -- the least -- to me ye did
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