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Adventures in Islam: Three verses from the Quran and what they mean for Christians


07-29-2016, 12:05 AM #1
Thunderian
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I think it's about time we really drilled down into Islam and learned as much as we can about this religion.  As we are continually reminded, Islam is the fastest-growing faith on the planet, and one quarter of the world's population are said to be Muslims.  It's bound to start affecting us sooner or later, if it hasn't already, and it would do us all good to know what Islam teaches and what it means for non-Muslims.

I say that twenty-five percent are "said to be" Muslim because there is a lot of discussion and assertion by and amongst Muslims as to what constitutes a true follower of Islam.  We are told that a Muslim is anyone who submits to the will of Allah, but as in Christianity, there is by no means consensus among those who say they are Muslim as to what the will of Allah might be, since mainstream Muslims say they reject ISIS-types, and the ISIS-types reject mainstream Muslims, the Sunni reject the Shia, and so on.

I intend to use the Quran and hadith as best I can, and hopefully with the help of Muslims who are willing to engage on this topic, to determine exactly what Islamic writings say the will of Allah is, and from there figure out what this means for the rest of us.

I aim to be respectful and truthful, as far as the source material I use and the manner in which I conduct myself, and I ask that anyone who replies to this thread do the same.  I am looking forward to exploring the Muslim religion and seeing followers of Islam defend their faith.  I remind those who post in this thread that the topic is Islam, and those aspects of Islam that are compared and contrasted with Christianity.

For quotes from the Quran I am using quran.com -- if anyone has a better translation I will be happy to use that.

All Bible quotes from the King James Version.

+++

The first area I would like to examine are three verses from the Quran and comment on what they mean to those who believe the Bible.

The first verse is 4:157 -

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

So this verse means that Islam is incompatible with Bible-based Christianity.  This denies that Jesus was crucified and died, as was prophesied in the Old Testament and then recorded and expounded on throughout the New Testament.  According to the Quran, Jesus never died on the cross, but Allah put forth a fake in his place, and his sacrificial death for humankind never occurred.

The next verse we'll look at is 5:47 -

And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.

Now this verse is at odds with 5:47, because it confirms that, according to the Quran, the Gospel is true and was revealed by Allah, which means that Jesus was crucified for our sins.  Muslims say that the Bible has been corrupted, but here the Quran says the opposite.  I'm most interested, I think, in what Muslims have to say about this verse.

And lastly, 9:29 -

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

It's hard to read this verse and then say that Islam is a religion of peace, when Muslims are commanded to fight anyone who doesn't believe in Allah, his teachings, and his commandments.  According to this verse, any Muslim who attacks a non-Muslim is merely doing what the Quran tells them to.

+++

I am happy to discuss with Muslims how I may have gotten these verses wrong, and as I said, if there is a more accurate English translation, please direct me to it.  There seem to be almost as many translations of the Quran as there are versions of the Bible, so I am not discounting the idea that I may have gotten hold of an incorrect rendering of these verses.

Thanks for reading and I look forward to engaging with specific, respectful and on-topic comments.
This post was last modified: 07-29-2016, 01:57 AM by Thunderian. Edit Reason: ... coding issues
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07-29-2016, 05:23 AM #2
Yahda
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Quote-  "There seem to be almost as many translations of the Quran as there are versions of the Bible, so I am not discounting the idea that I may have gotten hold of an incorrect rendering of these verses"


While the average Muslim will argue that the Quran has not been corrupted, and that not a single word has been changed etc etc......It was always very obvious to me that the corruption never laid in the text but in the translations.

As I have stated in the past, one of my favorite scholars is a Muslim. When he goes deep into the roots of Islam and the original language and people it derived from, you would think he was reading from a whole another book. 

Some may recall me saying that he reads the Quran the same way I read the bible. A whole another irrefutable understanding. 
This post was last modified: 07-29-2016, 05:24 AM by Yahda.

~Yahda
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07-29-2016, 10:04 AM #3
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Maybe another reason to seek an understanding of Islam is that the Third World War may involve Muslims. If there is any merit in the letter of 1871 written by Albert Pike to Mazzini the Third World War will be mainly fought between political Zionism (State of Israel) and the Arab Moslem world. Of course, other nations will become involved to make it a world war. It is alleged that the first and second world wars were accurately predicted by him in the said letter. It is now understood by many that these were not predictions but well laid out plans to bring about the New World Order.

Overcomer

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
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07-29-2016, 10:59 AM #4
Goku
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(07-29-2016, 10:04 AM)Overcomer Wrote:  Maybe another reason to seek an understanding of Islam is that the Third World War may involve Muslims. If there is any merit in the letter of 1871 written by Albert Pike to Mazzini the Third World War will be mainly fought between political Zionism (State of Israel) and the Arab Moslem world. Of course, other nations will become involved to make it a world war. It is alleged that the first and second world wars were accurately predicted by him in the said letter. It is now understood by many that these were not predictions but well laid out plans to bring about the New World Order.

Overcomer

Well said.

I believe Albert Pike was definitely onto something in his predictions.

One of the main reasons for the demonization of Islam in the media, in my opinion, other than fanning the flames, is that when and if this Third World War occurs, western countries will automatically side with Israel and the masses will follow in the belief that Islam needs to be destroyed, when in actuality, it would be a blow to Mankind if that were to happen but people become blinded by emotion and rage, due to the media, which is what needs to be prevented.

Fingers crossed it doesn't come to that & apologies to Mr.T if I have de-railed.


"If people don't want you to question something, that probably means you should question it." - Michel Templet

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07-29-2016, 11:23 AM #5
Lisa
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(07-29-2016, 10:59 AM)Goku Wrote:  
(07-29-2016, 10:04 AM)Overcomer Wrote:  Maybe another reason to seek an understanding of Islam is that the Third World War may involve Muslims. If there is any merit in the letter of 1871 written by Albert Pike to Mazzini the Third World War will be mainly fought between political Zionism (State of Israel) and the Arab Moslem world. Of course, other nations will become involved to make it a world war. It is alleged that the first and second world wars were accurately predicted by him in the said letter. It is now understood by many that these were not predictions but well laid out plans to bring about the New World Order.

Overcomer

Well said.

I believe Albert Pike was definitely onto something in his predictions.

One of the main reasons for the demonization of Islam in the media, in my opinion, other than fanning the flames, is that when and if this Third World War occurs, western countries will automatically side with Israel and the masses will follow in the belief that Islam needs to be destroyed, when in actuality, it would be a blow to Mankind if that were to happen but people become blinded by emotion and rage, due to the media, which is what needs to be prevented.

Fingers crossed it doesn't come to that & apologies to Mr.T if I have de-railed.

Actually the nations will be against Israel and I think islam will be the iron part of the nwo, goes with what the Bible says anyway....

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.  1John 4:1

Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 1 Peter 5:8

07-29-2016, 11:37 AM #6
Kung Fu
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(07-29-2016, 10:59 AM)Goku Wrote:  Well said.

I believe Albert Pike was definitely onto something in his predictions.

One of the main reasons for the demonization of Islam in the media, in my opinion, other than fanning the flames, is that when and if this Third World War occurs, western countries will automatically side with Israel and the masses will follow in the belief that Islam needs to be destroyed, when in actuality, it would be a blow to Mankind if that were to happen but people become blinded by emotion and rage, due to the media, which is what needs to be prevented.

Fingers crossed it doesn't come to that & apologies to Mr.T if I have de-railed.

I agree, Goku. There will be another war, I assure you and it's not a coincidence that the Zionist supporting nations are invading Muslim nations as we speak along with demonizing them in the media. This is all being done for a greater plan.

Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahu alaihi wasalam) said:

"My similitude and that of the life of this world is that of a traveler who took a rest at mid-day under a shade of a tree and then left it."       (Ahmad, at-Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah and al-Hakim)

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07-29-2016, 11:41 AM #7
Loki
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(07-29-2016, 11:23 AM)Lisa Wrote:  
(07-29-2016, 10:59 AM)Goku Wrote:  
(07-29-2016, 10:04 AM)Overcomer Wrote:  Maybe another reason to seek an understanding of Islam is that the Third World War may involve Muslims. If there is any merit in the letter of 1871 written by Albert Pike to Mazzini the Third World War will be mainly fought between political Zionism (State of Israel) and the Arab Moslem world. Of course, other nations will become involved to make it a world war. It is alleged that the first and second world wars were accurately predicted by him in the said letter. It is now understood by many that these were not predictions but well laid out plans to bring about the New World Order.

Overcomer

Well said.

I believe Albert Pike was definitely onto something in his predictions.

One of the main reasons for the demonization of Islam in the media, in my opinion, other than fanning the flames, is that when and if this Third World War occurs, western countries will automatically side with Israel and the masses will follow in the belief that Islam needs to be destroyed, when in actuality, it would be a blow to Mankind if that were to happen but people become blinded by emotion and rage, due to the media, which is what needs to be prevented.

Fingers crossed it doesn't come to that & apologies to Mr.T if I have de-railed.

Actually the nations will be against Israel and I think islam will be the iron part of the nwo, goes with what the Bible says anyway....

I don't typically get involved in these types of threads as they don't really interest me much, and maybe this is becoming very off-topic very quickly anyway, but I'm curious if you have anything to back this statement/idea up other than you believe the Bible said it will be this way?

It seems rather clear to me that the West would ally with Israel and wage war on Muslims and the Middle East, we've been doing it for well over a decade now and I don't see what could possibly change other than if by the time a third world war might pop off America has a Muslim president, and even then I'm not sure if America would be able to side with the Muslim World over Israel.

“Life is neither good or evil, but only a place for good and evil.”
Marcus Aurelius

"In my opinion, there is a more scientific approach we can take to all hot-button issues. We do this when we stop demonizing the opposing viewpoints or victimizing ourselves, and we acknowledge and account for our own biases and emotions to the best of our ability."
--- Elliott C. Morgan
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07-29-2016, 12:25 PM #8
Kung Fu
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(07-29-2016, 11:41 AM)Loki Wrote:  It seems rather clear to me that the West would ally with Israel and wage war on Muslims and the Middle East, we've been doing it for well over a decade now and I don't see what could possibly change other than if by the time a third world war might pop off America has a Muslim president, and even then I'm not sure if America would be able to side with the Muslim World over Israel.

In before "but Obama is a Muslim".

Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahu alaihi wasalam) said:

"My similitude and that of the life of this world is that of a traveler who took a rest at mid-day under a shade of a tree and then left it."       (Ahmad, at-Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah and al-Hakim)

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07-29-2016, 03:44 PM #9
Thunderian
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The Bible says in Zechariah that ALL the people of the earth will be gathered against Israel.

I am interested in comments on the verses in the OP, especially by Muslims.

07-29-2016, 03:52 PM #10
Todd
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(07-29-2016, 03:44 PM)Thunderian Wrote:  The Bible says in Zechariah that ALL the people of the earth will be gathered against Israel.

I am interested in comments on the verses in the OP, especially by Muslims.

Zechariah 12 already fulfilled -> https://adammaarschalk.com/2014/12/24/ze...fulfilled/

Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;

And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did to one of these my brethren -- the least -- to me ye did