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Satanic Leader or Feminist Heroine?


07-19-2016, 09:03 PM #1
ZzZ
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İmage

Womens Rights in Pakistan

Hi all. So we all know there are serious concerns when it comes to Women's Rights and abuse of women in Indian Subcontinent, home to a diverse group of peoples including people who are pious but also those who are dreadfully horrible. Unfortunately, the entire religion of Islam often has to take the blame for the actions of a few, and the murder of Qandeel Baloch is no exception (real name Fouzia Azeem.)


Qandeel

That said, I wanted to know what people in this forum thought of Qandeel. If you read a little bit about her life, it seems she was forced into a marriage with a man she had no feelings for and then eventually left him for the Pakistani entertainment industry as a sort of twisted "revenge against the patriarchal system." See the interview below.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1271213/qandeel-baloch-murdered-by-brother-in-multan-police?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+dawn-news+(Dawn+News)


The Satanic Movement

Anyway, it seems the entertainment industry really changed things for her. She was began to produce erotic popular music videos, released sexually suggestive photos, became famous and had a large twitter following. If you look at the material she's released, (like her music video Ban) some of it contains pyramids and occult symbolism. See link below. 

http://images.dawn.com/news/1175788

But am I reading too much into this? A few photos with pyramids, sexually explicit material and fame isn't necessarily always due to the Satanic agenda is it? 
This post was last modified: 07-22-2016, 12:49 AM by ZzZ.
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07-19-2016, 09:26 PM #2
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The Satanic Movement (Continued):

But was this really just an innocent attempt to bring women more influence in the civil space of Pakistan while still respecting family values, local custom and religious tradition? Was she really on par with the highly acclaimed Malala Yousafzai. Or should Qandeel be interpreted as a modern day Satanic feminist that seeks to promote self worship, encourage division and destroy family values ? 

Her killing has made her a martyr and many have been inspired by her. But I wonder if she was just as much of a victim of the Satanic movement as Kesha or Rhianna are. We've already seen this movement try to raise local leaders in other cultures, with suggestive and twisted photoshoots/pop music videos like in Korea and Japan. My thought is, she was just one more up and coming satanist 'leader' who was eliminated by her own brother due to their own twisted version of Islamic teachings.


Religious Doctrine

Her brother and killer said: 'She was bringing dishonor to our family.' 

The Islamic perspective on this, I would imagine is complex. First I'd like to remind everyone that quoting one verse from the Quran is not enough to justify any specific action. It has to be taken into full context which requires time and dedication to study and fully get a grasp of. That said, the following ayah states: 

"On that account: We [The Lord] ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone slew a person - unless it be in retaliation for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew all mankind: and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all humanity." [5:32]

Islam places a sacred value on all human life, as was prescribed for the Jews. My contention in the ayah is this: "unless it be for...spreading mischief/corruption in the land..." Although we don't know the state of her heart and soul, its hard for Pakistani society to take Qandeel as a seriously pious person. People like her don't earn the respect of the pious in Muslim countries. People like Abdul Sattar Edhi and his wife Bilqis Edhi do. 

If indeed Qandeel was part of this Satanic movement does anyone here think we shouldn't be so quick to take her as a heroine for feminism? How should we process this event? Personally I think the murder is unjustified, obviously. But I also think there should have been some peaceful intervention to prevent her going down a Satanic path. 

I'd especially like to hear from Muslim, Christian and Feminist voices. I'd even love to see a VigilantCitizen article on this because its incredibly important to get a better understanding of our moral position.
This post was last modified: 07-19-2016, 10:14 PM by ZzZ.
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07-19-2016, 10:28 PM #3
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You aren't reading too much, maybe not enough... For example in that picture i see a woman (great prostitute) riding the beast (system) symbol Rev 17... That's some blatant symbolism, but for sure im reading too much into it....

EDIT what an awful song Rolleyes
This post was last modified: 07-19-2016, 10:31 PM by Vytas.

Truth is precious it's guarded by God
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07-19-2016, 11:32 PM #4
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I don't condone her immorality -- she once promised she would strip online if the Pakistani national cricket team won a match against India -- but what happened to her was awful.

More than a thousand women are killed each year in Pakistan for dishonoring their families.  It is almost exclusively a family member who kills them, and a loophole in the law allows the family to forgive the killer.

But there is cause for hope.  It was Qandeel Baloch's own father who reported her brother for killing her, and in a statement he said, “My daughter was brave and I will not forget or forgive her brutal murder.”

Here's a piece about honor killings in Pakistan, and how things might be changing.

Quote:Pakistan: 'Honor' killings grow more brutal, draw backlash

Parveen Rafiq screamed from her rooftop, "I have killed my daughter. I have saved my honor. She will never shame me again."

In the room below lay the charred body of 18-year-old Zeenat. Neighbors in the narrow alley who saw the smoke and heard screams rushed to Rafiq's home, but the door was bolted from within. Zeenat was dead. Her mother had choked her, and while the girl was still alive she doused with kerosene and set her on fire.

Zeenat's crime was to marry a childhood friend she loved, defying her widowed mother's pressure for an arranged marriage and, in the mind of her mother and many of her neighbors, tarnishing her family's honor.

Her death on June 8 was the latest in a series of increasingly gruesome "honor" killings in Pakistan, which has one of the highest rates of such killings in the world.

In one case, a mother slit the throat of her pregnant daughter who had married a man she loved. In the city of Abbottabad, a teenage girl who helped a friend elope was tortured, injected with poison and then strapped to the seat of a vehicle and set on fire. A jirga, or council of local elders, ordered her killing as a message to others.

The brutality and rapid succession of killings horrified many Pakistanis. The numbers of such killings have been climbing. Last year, 1,096 women and 88 men were killed in "honor" crimes in Pakistan, according to the independent Human Rights Commission of Pakistan. In 2014, the number was 1,005 women, including 82 children, up from 869 women a year earlier. The true numbers are believed to be higher, with many cases going unreported, activists say.

Some human rights and women's rights activists believe the rise in numbers and brutality reflects an older generation digging in against creeping change.

Over the years, more women have been going to school and working outside the home, and social media have helped women raise their voices. More than 70 percent of Pakistan's 180 million people are under 30, and some are challenging traditions to an unprecedented degree.

"The old order of misogyny and extremism is falling apart, is really crumbling," says Marvi Sermid, a women's rights activist.

Centuries of tradition in Pakistan tie the idea of a woman as an untouched commodity to a family's honor. Traditions have been further strengthened by governments that often curried the support of religious hard-liners with legislation enshrining the old ways.

Those who kill for "honor" are almost never punished in Pakistan. A law based on Islamic Shariah allows the family of a victim to forgive a killer, and in these cases the killers are almost always family. So other relatives give their forgiveness, unwilling to see loved ones jailed.

Still, outrage over recent killings and other violence against women has fueled an outcry against the establishment. One target has been the Council of Islamic Ideology, a body of conservative Muslim clerics that advises the government to ensure laws don't stray from Shariah.

When the government proposed a law aimed at protecting women against violence, the council in May put forward an alternative allowing men to "lightly beat" their wives.

Young people replied with a Twitter campaign with the mocking hashtag #TryBeatingMeLightly. On TV talk shows, guests denounced the council as misogynist and out of touch. Some lawmakers called for it to be disbanded.

The outcry appears to be having an effect. The council in June decreed that honor killings are un-Islamic.

Meanwhile, police and prosecutors have found a way around the forgiveness loophole. Rafiq and one of her sons suspected of helping in Zeenat's killing have been detained and face charges under the anti-terrorism law, which defines any act that causes general panic as terrorism.

Zeenat's death underscores the social traditions that underpin "honor" crimes.

For months, neighbors said, her mother complained about her two elder daughters, who married men of their own choice.

Zeenat was Rafiq's last chance to save her honor. She planned an arranged marriage for Zeenat with a member of their own social caste, the Rajput, which is said to be descended from kings.

But Zeenat had her heart set on a childhood friend, a 20-year-old motorcycle mechanic named Hassan Khan who lived nearby in their crowded Lahore shantytown.

"We were in love," Khan said, his voice barely a whisper.

He showed a collection of selfies on his phone that Zeenat had put together to the rhythm of their favorite song, an Urdu pop tune called "You Made Me Your Lover." As the music played, Zeenat in the photos struck different poses, always smiling, her black hair falling past her shoulders.

She loved taking selfies, music and poetry, he said. She had memorized the Quran and taught it to local children.

Zeenat and her mother fought about Khan, and Zeenat told him her mother beat her. Khan said Zeenat pleaded with him to marry her.

In May, they finally did, marrying at a courthouse. Zeenat moved into Khan's home.

A few days later, Zeenat's mother and uncle came, begging her to come home, just for a few days. They said they would arrange a proper wedding for her and Khan, which would save their honor by showing neighbors she didn't elope. Zeenat's uncle promised she would be safe.

Khan's elders eventually agreed that Zeenat would go with her mother.

At first, it seemed Zeenat's mother had accepted their marriage, Khan said.

But on the fourth day, Zeenat called him, afraid. Her mother was yelling at her threateningly.

"I told her to not worry. It was just two more days and she would be back home with me."

The next morning, she was dead.

Neighbor women outside Rafiq's home all agreed that the mother was driven to kill Zeenat, and she should go free.

"Daughters are duty-bound to maintain the honor of the family," said Muneeba Bibi. "It's better to have no children than to have a daughter who brings you shame."

Zeenat's killing was "a good lesson for all the girls here to protect the family honor," she said.

The little girls playing in the alleys all knew Zeenat was killed by her mother. But they weren't sure why. All they knew was she had done something very bad.

"She was strangled and then they burned her," said 11-year-old Sameera. "When I think about it I get scared."

In the home he briefly shared with Zeenat, Khan showed a poem she had written on a tissue paper.

"I love you. I kiss you

I love you. I miss you

I take your name with every breath

I see you in every dream

I want to see you all the time"

Khan refolded the fragile tissue and returned it to his wallet.

"I want her hanged," he said of Zeenat's mother. "She has to be punished. This is the only way this will stop."

link
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07-20-2016, 12:37 AM #5
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Wow, super sad & f-ed up details from that last article

#Pakistan

Isn't there a way for human-kind to find their way to a common-sense morality.... without the crutch of religion?
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07-20-2016, 12:48 PM #6
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It's heartening to hear that people of Pakistan & India are working to curtail those horrid practices of honor killings & genital mutilation.  I wonder if there are people in Chechnya, & countries like Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, & Kyrgyzstan that are working to end bride-stealing.  I know sometimes there are "mock" bride-stealing scenarios that are planned in advance by both families involved, but real  bride-stealing is not funny.

How do they get the "m" on the M&M?

07-22-2016, 12:48 AM #7
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(07-20-2016, 12:48 PM)SheWatches Wrote:  It's heartening to hear that people of Pakistan & India are working to curtail those horrid practices of honor killings & genital mutilation.  I wonder if there are people in Chechnya, & countries like Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, & Kyrgyzstan that are working to end bride-stealing.  I know sometimes there are "mock" bride-stealing scenarios that are planned in advance by both families involved, but real  bride-stealing is not funny.

Not sure, it seems that cultural change happens from the top down in former Soviet countries. For things like bride-stealing to change, it takes free thinking, economic stability and religious/moral guidance.
This post was last modified: 07-22-2016, 12:48 AM by ZzZ.

07-22-2016, 02:48 PM #8
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(07-19-2016, 11:32 PM)Thunderian Wrote:  I don't condone her immorality -- she once promised she would strip online if the Pakistani national cricket team won a match against India -- but what happened to her was awful.

More than a thousand women are killed each year in Pakistan for dishonoring their families.  It is almost exclusively a family member who kills them, and a loophole in the law allows the family to forgive the killer.

But there is cause for hope.  It was Qandeel Baloch's own father who reported her brother for killing her, and in a statement he said, “My daughter was brave and I will not forget or forgive her brutal murder.”

Here's a piece about honor killings in Pakistan, and how things might be changing.

Quote:Pakistan: 'Honor' killings grow more brutal, draw backlash

Parveen Rafiq screamed from her rooftop, "I have killed my daughter. I have saved my honor. She will never shame me again."

In the room below lay the charred body of 18-year-old Zeenat. Neighbors in the narrow alley who saw the smoke and heard screams rushed to Rafiq's home, but the door was bolted from within. Zeenat was dead. Her mother had choked her, and while the girl was still alive she doused with kerosene and set her on fire.

Zeenat's crime was to marry a childhood friend she loved, defying her widowed mother's pressure for an arranged marriage and, in the mind of her mother and many of her neighbors, tarnishing her family's honor.

Her death on June 8 was the latest in a series of increasingly gruesome "honor" killings in Pakistan, which has one of the highest rates of such killings in the world.

In one case, a mother slit the throat of her pregnant daughter who had married a man she loved. In the city of Abbottabad, a teenage girl who helped a friend elope was tortured, injected with poison and then strapped to the seat of a vehicle and set on fire. A jirga, or council of local elders, ordered her killing as a message to others.

The brutality and rapid succession of killings horrified many Pakistanis. The numbers of such killings have been climbing. Last year, 1,096 women and 88 men were killed in "honor" crimes in Pakistan, according to the independent Human Rights Commission of Pakistan. In 2014, the number was 1,005 women, including 82 children, up from 869 women a year earlier. The true numbers are believed to be higher, with many cases going unreported, activists say.

Some human rights and women's rights activists believe the rise in numbers and brutality reflects an older generation digging in against creeping change.

Over the years, more women have been going to school and working outside the home, and social media have helped women raise their voices. More than 70 percent of Pakistan's 180 million people are under 30, and some are challenging traditions to an unprecedented degree.

"The old order of misogyny and extremism is falling apart, is really crumbling," says Marvi Sermid, a women's rights activist.

Centuries of tradition in Pakistan tie the idea of a woman as an untouched commodity to a family's honor. Traditions have been further strengthened by governments that often curried the support of religious hard-liners with legislation enshrining the old ways.

Those who kill for "honor" are almost never punished in Pakistan. A law based on Islamic Shariah allows the family of a victim to forgive a killer, and in these cases the killers are almost always family. So other relatives give their forgiveness, unwilling to see loved ones jailed.

Still, outrage over recent killings and other violence against women has fueled an outcry against the establishment. One target has been the Council of Islamic Ideology, a body of conservative Muslim clerics that advises the government to ensure laws don't stray from Shariah.

When the government proposed a law aimed at protecting women against violence, the council in May put forward an alternative allowing men to "lightly beat" their wives.

Young people replied with a Twitter campaign with the mocking hashtag #TryBeatingMeLightly. On TV talk shows, guests denounced the council as misogynist and out of touch. Some lawmakers called for it to be disbanded.

The outcry appears to be having an effect. The council in June decreed that honor killings are un-Islamic.

Meanwhile, police and prosecutors have found a way around the forgiveness loophole. Rafiq and one of her sons suspected of helping in Zeenat's killing have been detained and face charges under the anti-terrorism law, which defines any act that causes general panic as terrorism.

Zeenat's death underscores the social traditions that underpin "honor" crimes.

For months, neighbors said, her mother complained about her two elder daughters, who married men of their own choice.

Zeenat was Rafiq's last chance to save her honor. She planned an arranged marriage for Zeenat with a member of their own social caste, the Rajput, which is said to be descended from kings.

But Zeenat had her heart set on a childhood friend, a 20-year-old motorcycle mechanic named Hassan Khan who lived nearby in their crowded Lahore shantytown.

"We were in love," Khan said, his voice barely a whisper.

He showed a collection of selfies on his phone that Zeenat had put together to the rhythm of their favorite song, an Urdu pop tune called "You Made Me Your Lover." As the music played, Zeenat in the photos struck different poses, always smiling, her black hair falling past her shoulders.

She loved taking selfies, music and poetry, he said. She had memorized the Quran and taught it to local children.

Zeenat and her mother fought about Khan, and Zeenat told him her mother beat her. Khan said Zeenat pleaded with him to marry her.

In May, they finally did, marrying at a courthouse. Zeenat moved into Khan's home.

A few days later, Zeenat's mother and uncle came, begging her to come home, just for a few days. They said they would arrange a proper wedding for her and Khan, which would save their honor by showing neighbors she didn't elope. Zeenat's uncle promised she would be safe.

Khan's elders eventually agreed that Zeenat would go with her mother.

At first, it seemed Zeenat's mother had accepted their marriage, Khan said.

But on the fourth day, Zeenat called him, afraid. Her mother was yelling at her threateningly.

"I told her to not worry. It was just two more days and she would be back home with me."

The next morning, she was dead.

Neighbor women outside Rafiq's home all agreed that the mother was driven to kill Zeenat, and she should go free.

"Daughters are duty-bound to maintain the honor of the family," said Muneeba Bibi. "It's better to have no children than to have a daughter who brings you shame."

Zeenat's killing was "a good lesson for all the girls here to protect the family honor," she said.

The little girls playing in the alleys all knew Zeenat was killed by her mother. But they weren't sure why. All they knew was she had done something very bad.

"She was strangled and then they burned her," said 11-year-old Sameera. "When I think about it I get scared."

In the home he briefly shared with Zeenat, Khan showed a poem she had written on a tissue paper.

"I love you. I kiss you

I love you. I miss you

I take your name with every breath

I see you in every dream

I want to see you all the time"

Khan refolded the fragile tissue and returned it to his wallet.

"I want her hanged," he said of Zeenat's mother. "She has to be punished. This is the only way this will stop."

link

Wow! I can't imagine that kind of life.....  Sad

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.  1John 4:1

Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 1 Peter 5:8

07-22-2016, 10:44 PM #9
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(07-19-2016, 10:28 PM)Vytas Wrote:  You aren't reading too much, maybe not enough... For example in that picture i see a woman (great prostitute) riding the beast (system) symbol Rev 17... That's some blatant symbolism, but for sure im reading too much into it....

EDIT what an awful song Rolleyes


If people don't know that corruption is being pushed on them, how are they supposed to defend against it :/

07-22-2016, 10:49 PM #10
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Wow! I can't imagine that kind of life.....  Sad

Hey Lisa, I've seen some of this as a male Muslim. 

If you don't mind me asking, what do family values mean to you? Aren't there are still traces of patriarchy in the Christian community? I'm sure you feel a sense of communal obligation towards your father, husband and/or children. If I may ask, what do you view as being sinful. What are your convictions about female modesty like Mother Mary.
This post was last modified: 07-22-2016, 11:22 PM by ZzZ.