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Qur'an but no Sunnah?


06-02-2016, 04:04 PM #1
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A Qur'anite is someone who identifies themselves as a Muslim - believes in the Qur'an, but not the Supplementary ahadeeth literature which help to enrich our understanding of the Qur'an.

The Qur'anite has many issues regarding the majority of Muslims and mainstream Islam in general. We will see these contentions a little later and the debunks to these contentions also, God willing.

But first, we should learn a little about the Qur'anite.

Elsewhere on this board, I wrote the following regarding where I believe the Quran'ite movement to hail from:

I, Scimi Wrote:I honestly believe that the Quranite movement is a controlled PSY-OP.

Here are my reasons.

1 - No Quranite is Arab. Nor Middle Eastern. Heck not even South Asian nor Malaysian nor Indonesian - the majority Muslim nations have been mentioned.

2 - ALL QURANITES HAIL FROM THE WEST AND ARE UNILINGUAL.

3 - The Quranite fail is in the following fact: They won't even learn Arabic to read the Qur'an in its orginal tongue - nope.

4 - They are a khawarij group. Hailing from the "western countries"... their Islam doesn't go beyond their throats.

Want proof?

5 - They don't even know how to make salaah. Or anything else for that matter.

6 - And as you mentioned, they attack the Qur'an, Islam and the Sahabi, Tabi'een, and Tabbe Tabi'een, the Muhaddith, the Shuyookh, they leave no one alone.

7 - They troll Islam more than the non Muslims do

Like I said: Khawarij.

With that out of the way, I would now like to take the following points raised by our resident Quran'ite, ela - and debunk them all with contextual dissemination of the Qur'an, history, anthropology, and a few other ologiies thrown in too.

May we? in sha Allah.

1. How do you connect the following: obeying the messenger = obeying bukhari's hadith books by using Quran?

We do not, it's not as simple as just looking in Bukhari collections and cherry picking which ahadeeth we wish to follow.

There is a methodology, and it requires years of study and a very good memory to boot. You can check out the Muhaddith courses and what they entail and the course modules covered - it's a very legitimised study which factors in the early Arab tradition of oral narration from memory - a feat many still remain in wonder about today.

Let us not forget, that the very words "al Qur'an" literally translate to "the Recital". Surely you can appreciate this would appeal to a people who held the oral tradition in a high esteem among their various traditions, no?

With relation to the intellectual dissemination of ahadeeth, it is only the Muhaddith shuyookh (scholars of hadeeth) who can utilise them in their correct applicable contexts.

But to answer your question, "how do you connect the following - obeying the messenger = obeying bukhari's hadeeth books - Qur'an" question... I think what you are really asking is, "How do you justify Bukhari over the actions of the Prophet?" - I ask, how do you know what the prophet did or did not do? If you have no record of it beside the Qur'an?

Your question doesn't really make sense, but I wanted to attempt to give you something to chew on anyway.

2. Why call a religious book Sahih al-Bukhari or Jami` at-Tirmidhi instead of Sahih Traditions of Muhammad if the hadiths came from Prophet Muhammad?

These are the collections of ahadeeth compiled and categorised by those respective collators of ahadeeth, thus we know which collaters (muhaddith) wrote which books, it's really as simple as that.

3. If hadiths are supposed to explain Quran, why did they leave out the scientific facts found in its verses which later nonMuslims had to show to Muslims?

The Qur'an is a timeless book - appealing to all ages, but not all ages have the same knowledge. The people of previous time frames didn't have the scientific know how we do today - the miraculous thing here is that science agrees with the Qur'an.

Also, with regard to the scientific verses of the Qur'an, you may not know this but scientists like Ibn al Haythm formulated the scientific method, which is still in use today - or how about his book of optics, still required reading in universities for students of the optical sciences, a book written a thousand years ago... that's just one man... there are many, but hey, what I'm trying to demonstrate here is that - Muslims have a large and rich history, just read up on the golden age of Islam, you'll be pleasantly surprised at our achievements. The European Rennaisance period owes a debt of gratitude tp the Muslim golden age - and that is a fact. Please go learn it.

4. If hadiths are supposed to explain Quran why did they leave out  the following Surahs: 23, 27, 29, 35, 51, 57, 58, 64, 67, 69, 70, 73, 76, 81, 82, 86, 88, 89, 90, 94, 100, 101, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, and 109?

Not all surahs require hadeeth, and even so - a lot of what those Surah's contain herald information from other knowledges, such as medicine, math, science, cosmology, spiritual epistemology, etc etc etc... stuff that we as a species are still learning about, and everything we learn agrees with the Qur'an - so is hadeeth really necessary for those particular ayaat? No.

5. Where are the original manuscripts of Bukhari showing the application of hadith science in his work?

Do you read and understand Arabic? Big Grin No, I didn't think so.

6. Bukhari's collected hadiths were preserved, but why was his first biography allowed to be lost?

What do you mean by "Allowed to be lost" lol - you should study history to understand the contextual time frame of the period in history when thousands of volumes of books were burnt to a cinder by the mongolian invasion of Muslim lands - Baghdad famous House of Wisdom, levelled by fire, and many more like it.

Study history. Islamic history.

7. Shafi was known as the architect of Islam, meaning he was such an important person. Then why very little is known about his earlier days and why his first biography is also lost?

You mean Imaam Shafii? Why is his early life important? it wasn;t that eventful, and he himself didn't see a reason it warranted a biography so why would we? What we have about Imaam Shafii - is what his achievements were in the dissemination of articles of faith, methodology of investigation and a middle path reconcilation for a people who knew no better - he's a noble man who gave us one of our four complimentary schools of thought.

8. How did Bukhari hear 600,000 hadiths from 1,000 men when his admirer and teacher Ibn Hanbal with whom he worked knew millions of hadiths which he tried to even live passionately and almost got him prophethood?

You are slandering scholarly people here without reading their biographies - I won't entertain slander - I thohght your line of enquiry was genuine. Not based on ignorance - maybe I was wrong.

9. How many people went on tour with Mr Bukhari to collect hadiths? Not known? Move to next question.

Maybe I was right. You've not read up on Bukhari - at all.

10. It is claimed that Bukhari traveled to places also to collect hadiths. Who went to verify he did so by meeting the same people from whom he collected the hadiths?

There are two books you can reference if you can read and understand Arabic - Tehzibul Tehzib and Mizanul Aitidal

11. Where in Quran Sunnah of Prophet is mentioned?

I should ask you that lol, since you are the Qur'anite.

12. Hadiths say "kill exMuslims". Does this mean in order to stay alive they should "pretend" to be Muslim? Isn't this forcing of deception?

If you are going to play that card, I ask, how do you answer the very same when faced with the same verse from the Qur'an? "kill them wherever ye find them" - you are not doing this right. There is something called context, but Quranites struggle with it.

13. Does Allah say that we must believe in the messenger and follow hadith in which so many sayings are fabricated?

"Believe in Allah (God) and His Messenger (The Prophet Muhammad and his sunnah) and the light which He sent down. (The Qur'an and Sunnah)" [Al-Qur'an 64:8] in context

14. Science of hadith talks about investigating narrators' truthfulness. What tools did they use to analyze the truthfulness of people died hundred years ago?

http://www.justislam.co.uk/images/An%20I...Hadith.pdf This is a great Introduction to the topic and it answers your question very well.

15. Can you use support from Quran that Shafi was right when he said hikmah means sunnah? Unfortunately, he did't do it in his own writing.

Doesn;t take a genius to work out he was right - Hikmah means what? Sunnah means what? and how do they relate? Even a Qur'anite can work this out - but only if they leave their bias aside.

16. Do you really believe that pious people like sahabas discussed and even scattered around stories of Prophet Muhammad's sex life and bathroom activities?

No - the "internet" hadeeth have many fabricated ones, and the printed books from Palestine were done so by Jewish publishing houses - this is common knowledge in the middle east.

17. Do you really believe Prophet's wife Aisha talked about her intimate moments with a bunch of men and women?

Again, see answer 16

18. What would be your reaction if you come to know that your wife was spreading those exact things about you?

I'm not married and i;m not here to talk about theoretical situations, I'm here to debunk your claims about ahadeeth.

19. Why the great narrator of 2000 hadiths is called Abu Hurairah (father of the kitty)  throughout the hadith books instead of Abd al-Rahman which happens to be his Islamic name?

It's actually a cute story. He used to love cats, and was always seen with a kitten tucked neatly in the folds of his sleeve's, cats loved him too - so much so that he was nick-named Abu Hurairah - which means father of the cats. Another of his titles is Abd Al Rahman, which means servant of the Merciful. MashaAllah, what a sahabi, may Allah be pleased with him.

20. What is the definition of sahih according to Bukhari?

http://theislamicperspective.org/wp-cont...Hadith.pdf

21. Who sponsored hadith collection tour of Mr Bukhari?

That information is in his biography, you would do well to learn it insted of entertain such ridiculous questions and even more questionable line of enquiry. Honestly ela, it makes you look very uneducated in Islam, and jabbing questions like a child... you're an adult, learn like one.

22. Do you consider prophet Ibrahim to be Muslim? If yes did he say "There is one God and Muhammad is his messenger? In that sense, who was Ibhrahim to you? (Don't bring up the idiotic hadith about it, bring Quranic proof).

You do not realise that Abraham pbuh predated Muhammad by at least a few thousand years? How can you ask such a stupid question, when after Abraham, the prophets came from the line is Isaac and between Ishmael and Muhammad there were not prophets?

ela, your questions are getting more ridiculous as I go on... I believe you are running out of viable lines of enquiry and have done more than answer the main points for rebuttal... the rest of your questions have been read and do not require any further elaboration.

The answers to the rest of your questions are in the two hadeeth science links I provided for you in this opening post.

God bless,

Scimi
This post was last modified: 06-02-2016, 04:13 PM by Scimitar.

Out beyond ideas
of wrong-doing,


and right-doing,

there is a field...

...I'll meet you there.
€



Jalaluddin Rumi

06-02-2016, 07:26 PM #2
celle76
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I when read things like this (what scimi posted) it really does confirm my belief in islam even more.

https://islamqa.info/en/3440

Ahmad, Abu Dawood and al-Haakim reported with a saheeh isnaad from al-Miqdaam that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said:

Quote:“Soon there will be a time when a man will be reclining on his couch, narrating a hadeeth from me, and he will say, ‘Between us and you is the Book of Allah: what it says is halaal, we take as halaal, and what it says is haraam, we take as haraam.’ But listen! Whatever the Messenger of Allah forbids is like what Allah forbids.”

(Al-Fath al-Kabeer, 3/438. Al-Tirmidhi reported it with different wording, and said that it is hasan saheeh. Sunan al-Tirmidhi bi Sharh Ibn al-‘Arabi, al-Saawi edn., 10/132)

but I guess the sect of al-Qur’aaniyyeen will say it is fabricated, go figure!!
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06-02-2016, 07:36 PM #3
khadeejah
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(06-02-2016, 07:26 PM)celle76 Wrote:  I when read things like this (what scimi posted) it really does confirm my belief in islam even more.

https://islamqa.info/en/3440

Ahmad, Abu Dawood and al-Haakim reported with a saheeh isnaad from al-Miqdaam that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said:

Quote:“Soon there will be a time when a man will be reclining on his couch, narrating a hadeeth from me, and he will say, ‘Between us and you is the Book of Allah: what it says is halaal, we take as halaal, and what it says is haraam, we take as haraam.’ But listen! Whatever the Messenger of Allah forbids is like what Allah forbids.”

(Al-Fath al-Kabeer, 3/438. Al-Tirmidhi reported it with different wording, and said that it is hasan saheeh. Sunan al-Tirmidhi bi Sharh Ibn al-‘Arabi, al-Saawi edn., 10/132)

but I guess the sect of al-Qur’aaniyyeen will say it is fabricated, go figure!!

I read that fatwa too brother,  Subhanallah.    How do the so called 'Quranites' follow the example of Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wasalam) when Allah the Most High has commanded them in over100 ayat in HIS BOOK to follow and obey the Messenger (Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasalam)!


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06-02-2016, 07:39 PM #4
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(06-02-2016, 07:36 PM)khadeejah Wrote:  
(06-02-2016, 07:26 PM)celle76 Wrote:  I when read things like this (what scimi posted) it really does confirm my belief in islam even more.

https://islamqa.info/en/3440

Ahmad, Abu Dawood and al-Haakim reported with a saheeh isnaad from al-Miqdaam that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said:

Quote:“Soon there will be a time when a man will be reclining on his couch, narrating a hadeeth from me, and he will say, ‘Between us and you is the Book of Allah: what it says is halaal, we take as halaal, and what it says is haraam, we take as haraam.’ But listen! Whatever the Messenger of Allah forbids is like what Allah forbids.”

(Al-Fath al-Kabeer, 3/438. Al-Tirmidhi reported it with different wording, and said that it is hasan saheeh. Sunan al-Tirmidhi bi Sharh Ibn al-‘Arabi, al-Saawi edn., 10/132)

but I guess the sect of al-Qur’aaniyyeen will say it is fabricated, go figure!!

I read that fatwa too brother,  Subhanallah.    How do the so called 'Quranites' follow the example of Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wasalam) when Allah the Most High has commanded them in over100 ayat in HIS BOOK to follow and obey the Messenger (Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasalam)!

And say: "Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish." Quran 17-81
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06-03-2016, 01:03 AM #5
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(06-02-2016, 07:26 PM)celle76 Wrote:  I when read things like this (what scimi posted) it really does confirm my belief in islam even more.

https://islamqa.info/en/3440

Ahmad, Abu Dawood and al-Haakim reported with a saheeh isnaad from al-Miqdaam that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said:

Quote:“Soon there will be a time when a man will be reclining on his couch, narrating a hadeeth from me, and he will say, ‘Between us and you is the Book of Allah: what it says is halaal, we take as halaal, and what it says is haraam, we take as haraam.’ But listen! Whatever the Messenger of Allah forbids is like what Allah forbids.”

(Al-Fath al-Kabeer, 3/438. Al-Tirmidhi reported it with different wording, and said that it is hasan saheeh. Sunan al-Tirmidhi bi Sharh Ibn al-‘Arabi, al-Saawi edn., 10/132)

but I guess the sect of al-Qur’aaniyyeen will say it is fabricated, go figure!!

This Hadith is what I was going to post. Thank you very much for posting it.

So look at the logic, you are allowed to quote anyone as long as it is not the prophet. Tell them that the prophet said this and they will simply disregard it. Tell them Aristotle said (or anyone for that matter)  and they will listen to you carefully. Just quote the prophet and they will stick their hands inside their ears. It is the prophet who I am quoting for goodness sake!!
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06-03-2016, 06:59 AM #6
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I used to think that way too about only the Qur'an.

As a person who was on a journey discovering life, i went through lots of phases.
I'm not a muslim yet, but in my heart i am, but to me i will be a muslim when i get truly devoted. As for now, i never even been to a mosque yet. I'm kinda alone in this for now.

When i discovered about islam, after all my journey, and i bet many people who are strangers to islam as well,
you hear lots of good things about islam and Qur'an.

At first stage your wary, you discover more and more about Qur'an, religion, history and other things.
Then after awhile, you begin to like it and start trusting bit by bit and allot is reaching your heart.

Then you find out about the ahadeeth, the different sects of islam and the quarrel between all the parties, and then the authentic ahadeeth and not authentic, or ahadeeth is for example more shia, or sunni.

So while you discover this, you think to yourself: Wait, it took me time to get to trust the Qur'an, i trust it not been changed and authentic, but muslims quarrel with each other over the ahadeeth allot and it gets so confusing!
Qur'an got my trust, but ahadeeth not.

But its only later i found out, that the ahadeeth has a system of authenticity, the one where if something written that contradicts Qur'an then take the message with a grain of salt.

Only after that, i started to trust more in ahadeeth.

So what i'm trying to say is:
Maybe thats why they read and trust only Qur'an, because they do not know all these things straight away.

I don't know much as well, so i apologise if i'm wrong on some things i just wrote, i'm still only a student in this. Blush
This post was last modified: 06-03-2016, 07:13 AM by yiksmes. Edit Reason: pressed the wrong reply button

More money, more problems
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06-03-2016, 09:04 AM #7
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(06-03-2016, 06:59 AM)yiksmes Wrote:  I used to think that way too about only the Qur'an.

As a person who was on a journey discovering life, i went through lots of phases.
I'm not a muslim yet, but in my heart i am, but to me i will be a muslim when i get truly devoted. As for now, i never even been to a mosque yet. I'm kinda alone in this for now.

-----

Thank you for all of what you wrote Yiksmes and I hope you find some good Muslim brothers (or sisters) to take as companions and support you in your journey.  Ramadan is almost upon us and it is the perfect time for you to visit a mosque and learn more about the beauty and simplicity of your Creator's chosen way of life for all of mankind.  You can PM any of the Muslims here and perhaps we can help you get in touch with a masjid near to you - God Willing.

I ask Almighty God to guide us and you and protect us and you and to give us all the best of provisions which is taqwa.


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06-03-2016, 11:25 AM #8
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Sooooo.... did the Quranite run away again or what?

Big Grin

Scimi

Out beyond ideas
of wrong-doing,


and right-doing,

there is a field...

...I'll meet you there.
€



Jalaluddin Rumi
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06-03-2016, 12:28 PM #9
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All your shields down, you've no armour now. All the layers peeled, supreme nothing here.

Admit you lacked Ela.

By the time, verily, man is in loss.

RIDDLER, GO AWAY LOL

~LV
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06-05-2016, 06:29 PM #10
yiksmes
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(06-03-2016, 09:04 AM)khadeejah Wrote:  
(06-03-2016, 06:59 AM)yiksmes Wrote:  I used to think that way too about only the Qur'an.

As a person who was on a journey discovering life, i went through lots of phases.
I'm not a muslim yet, but in my heart i am, but to me i will be a muslim when i get truly devoted. As for now, i never even been to a mosque yet. I'm kinda alone in this for now.

-----

Thank you for all of what you wrote Yiksmes and I hope you find some good Muslim brothers (or sisters) to take as companions and support you in your journey.  Ramadan is almost upon us and it is the perfect time for you to visit a mosque and learn more about the beauty and simplicity of your Creator's chosen way of life for all of mankind.  You can PM any of the Muslims here and perhaps we can help you get in touch with a masjid near to you - God Willing.

I ask Almighty God to guide us and you and protect us and you and to give us all the best of provisions which is taqwa.

Thank you very very much  Blush

Ramadan kareem to you and all the brothers and sisters! ))
This post was last modified: 06-05-2016, 06:30 PM by yiksmes.

More money, more problems
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