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A Discussion About Atheism (The Rubin Report)


04-28-2016, 11:58 AM #1
Loki
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I'm not posting this as an intended catalyst for argument or anything like that, I'm actually in the middle of watching it and just found it interesting and thought I'd post the videos here for those interested to watch. I've always found that Dave Rubin does a good and fair job of interviewing people in a non-biased and open way.

I guess part of what struck me so far in this video is the way these fellas identify atheists. By their definition I'm an atheist, and while I tend to say I'm not because I do possess some belief in a higher power, I suppose they are right in that I don't think of "God" as a sentient being necessarily as most religions do.

Anyway, I might add more once I finish watching both videos, but feel free to discuss the ideas put forward here or completely ignore this topic, whichever you prefer. I've been taking time away from the boards for the most part and don't particularly miss the time suck, but will try to participate in any conversation this thread generates if it's intelligent.

Also, there may be more parts coming out later and I will add them as I see them.
This post was last modified: 04-29-2016, 12:45 PM by Loki. Edit Reason: Added third part

“Life is neither good or evil, but only a place for good and evil.”
Marcus Aurelius

"In my opinion, there is a more scientific approach we can take to all hot-button issues. We do this when we stop demonizing the opposing viewpoints or victimizing ourselves, and we acknowledge and account for our own biases and emotions to the best of our ability."
--- Elliott C. Morgan
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04-28-2016, 12:51 PM #2
Loki
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So I've finished these two videos. I enjoyed both of them, though I tended to side with Paul Provenza because his method is much more similar to mine, I didn't necessarily disagree with David Silverman's points in the back half of Part 2. While I have no issue with adults choosing to believe in whatever religion they want, I do think we shouldn't be exposing our children to religious beliefs no matter the religion. I do think it's a form of brainwashing and can be harmful to our psyche when we are children. The blurring of fact and fiction at that young of an age is really messed up and I've always felt that way. But I don't really ever see that changing for the hardcore religious because they view their beliefs as absolute truth and to not indoctrinate their child in those beliefs would be putting their child at risk of choosing the "wrong" religion later in life, in their eyes.

I'm likely biased in my views here because my dad (and mom, though she had passed away by the time my memory really started holding onto moments) very specifically never pushed his religious views on me or my brother. I don't believe he had very strong religious views himself, but most of our family went to Church and such and would call themselves Christians even if they didn't truly believe all that, as would much of our community, so indoctrinating us early in Christian beliefs would have been the easy and cultural way to go, but he didn't and I thank him for that. Now, as an adult I look at a lot of his views and beliefs and kind of roll my eyes (not to his face, just inwardly) because we are so vastly different in our perceptions and ideals, but he gave me that freedom from an early age and I really appreciate that.

“Life is neither good or evil, but only a place for good and evil.”
Marcus Aurelius

"In my opinion, there is a more scientific approach we can take to all hot-button issues. We do this when we stop demonizing the opposing viewpoints or victimizing ourselves, and we acknowledge and account for our own biases and emotions to the best of our ability."
--- Elliott C. Morgan
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04-28-2016, 05:39 PM #3
damien50
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Quote:I do think we shouldn't be exposing our children to religious beliefs no matter the religion. I do think it's a form of brainwashing and can be harmful to our psyche when we are children. The blurring of fact and fiction at that young of an age is really messed up and I've always felt that way. But I don't really ever see that changing for the hardcore religious because they view their beliefs as absolute truth and to not indoctrinate their child in those beliefs would be putting their child at risk of choosing the "wrong" religion later in life, in their eyes.

But what about from a purely moral standpoint?  Kids like to ask why, so how would one raise their child to be a healthy productive member of society?

I'm ignorant of morals outside the bible, so I tend to look through things with rose tint.  Essentially the ten commandments were instilled in me, but I don't get along with the "Christian" folk too much.  I have never liked anyone that was so terrifyingly religious that they would force feed their beliefs or sentence me to hell.

I'm also a child and tend to ask why in any realm of life.  I don't disagree with your statements in a sense but I see a bunch of immorality as defined by the bible and can't understand how this point is reached.

Our advancement isn't too advanced.

The Continuation of the Truth

Isaiah 55:8-9 KJV For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord . [9] For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

04-28-2016, 05:53 PM #4
justjess
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When they ask why u ask them what do they think.. It's worked pretty well with my son so far. Encourages critical thinking and looking for their own answers. When he gets back to me with what he thinks we talk about it, I never give my own opinion unless specifically asked for it and then always preferences with "that's just my opinion, lots of people think lots of different things about it" - Of course when he was little and the questions were basic and easily answerable j just answered them, they didn't need a god to be explained or an actual thought for that matters

The only place this gets Dicey is with death and we have had a lot of that in my family recently. I just explained all the different major religious beliefs and atheist beliefs about what happens after death and told him honestly I don't know and again asked him what does he think, what feels like the right answer to him. Would it have been easier to say heaven or hell? No I don't personally think so.. that was the answer my parents gave me and I was never satisfied or consoled by it.

I agree Loki, I don't think a religion should be forced on anyone not even kids. Childhood lasts a short while, they have plenty of time to come to their own conclusions when they are old enough to do so and until then ambiguity never killed anyone. Morals and right from wrong definitely need to be instilled but you don't need God to do that
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04-28-2016, 06:27 PM #5
damien50
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Quote:I agree Loki, I don't think a religion should be forced on anyone not even kids. Childhood lasts a short while, they have plenty of time to come to their own conclusions when they are old enough to do so and until then ambiguity never killed anyone. Morals and right from wrong definitely need to be instilled but you don't need God to do that

I preferred the way my grandmother did it, initially.  It was enjoyable and interesting but it was never truly explained and she still can't explain it to me.

But around 10, I wanted to stop going to church, it was a waste of time and everyone had a bible but I and apparently none of the adults in church n knew what it contained.

I wasn't allowed to stop, I started hating church and Christians.

I wouldn't want anyone to feel that.  If disinterest were ever expressed or an inability to agree, I would let them do as they please in that area so long as they don't engage in harmful habits.

I think it would be fine but standards and examples for how they engage others would have to be set.

Just me though

The Continuation of the Truth

Isaiah 55:8-9 KJV For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord . [9] For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
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04-28-2016, 10:11 PM #6
justjess
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Do unto others never fails.. Teaching empathy doesn't require religion or God

I took my son to Sunday school briefly, he hated it so I let him quit. The kid has always loved God since he's a baby, church was making him change so we cut out church and all is well. I never asked him to define his beliefs and always left things pretty open, now at 12 he is starting to come to me and try to define his specific beliefs himself. It's a pleasure to watch him work through the eternal questions on his own and see his little mind working. I don't know if something more would have been necessary with a different child, I only have him - but he isn't the easiest child by a long shot, bipolar and everything since he's 7. So I figure if it works fine for him a more typical child shouldn't have a problem
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04-28-2016, 10:33 PM #7
damien50
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(04-28-2016, 10:11 PM)justjess Wrote:  Do unto others never fails.. Teaching empathy doesn't require religion or God

I took my son to Sunday school briefly, he hated it so I let him quit. The kid has always loved God since he's a baby, church was making him change so we cut out church and all is well. I never asked him to define his beliefs and always left things pretty open, now at 12 he is starting to come to me and try to define his specific beliefs himself. It's a pleasure to watch him work through the eternal questions on his own and see his little mind working. I don't know if something more would have been necessary with a different child, I only have him - but he isn't the easiest child by a long shot, bipolar and everything since he's 7. So I figure if it works fine for him a more typical child shouldn't have a problem

Fair enough, it's probably dependent on the child to some extent as well.  But it's principles like those that I would personally need requirement to understand and accept, but I'm different

The Continuation of the Truth

Isaiah 55:8-9 KJV For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord . [9] For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
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04-29-2016, 08:50 AM #8
Kung Fu
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(04-28-2016, 12:51 PM)Loki Wrote:  While I have no issue with adults choosing to believe in whatever religion they want, I do think we shouldn't be exposing our children to religious beliefs no matter the religion. I do think it's a form of brainwashing and can be harmful to our psyche when we are children.

I completely disagree. I wish my father taught me Islam at a young age but instead, I grew up with the morals of this decaying society and ended up being such a fucked up kid. Perhaps if my father taught me Islam at a young age, I wouldn't have womanized, gotten into fights and almost going to jail, and just in general being what I thought was cool but in reality was just scum.

Say what you want about Christianity and Islam but they teach great things and allow people to grow up being great. God is good and only through Him can you be guided. This of course if you're taught the proper Christianity and Islam.

Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahu alaihi wasalam) said:

"My similitude and that of the life of this world is that of a traveler who took a rest at mid-day under a shade of a tree and then left it."       (Ahmad, at-Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah and al-Hakim)

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04-29-2016, 10:31 AM #9
Loki
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(04-29-2016, 08:50 AM)Kung Fu Wrote:  
(04-28-2016, 12:51 PM)Loki Wrote:  While I have no issue with adults choosing to believe in whatever religion they want, I do think we shouldn't be exposing our children to religious beliefs no matter the religion. I do think it's a form of brainwashing and can be harmful to our psyche when we are children.

I completely disagree. I wish my father taught me Islam at a young age but instead, I grew up with the morals of this decaying society and ended up being such a fucked up kid. Perhaps if my father taught me Islam at a young age, I wouldn't have womanized, gotten into fights and almost going to jail, and just in general being what I thought was cool but in reality was just scum.

Say what you want about Christianity and Islam but they teach great things and allow people to grow up being great. God is good and only through Him can you be guided. This of course if you're taught the proper Christianity and Islam.

Well my father didn't teach me any religion but instead taught me to be a good person and a good man. If your father didn't take those steps or succeed in those lessons then maybe there was a disconnect somewhere. There's a very good possibility that even if they had taught you Islam from an early age you would have still acted out during your rebellious years. It's not as if many self-proclaiming Muslim and Christian young men and women don't do the same. It seems that it often comes down to the person and finding a way for themselves, hopefully with the help and understanding of their parents. Since I can't possibly know the entirety of your childhood and upbrining though, I can't really speak any more knowledgeably on why you acted out in such a way and I didn't.

The bolded line really gets to the heart of it though. You have to have faith that every religious family is "the proper" kind of religious, which seems entirely subjective because every family will obviously think they are the proper kind of their religion, otherwise they wouldn't follow that version. I'd simply prefer a more secular world I suppose, where we discover and decide if religion is right for us, or makes sense to us, once we are older rather than being indoctrinated and brainwashed from birth. You decided at an older age it seems that Islam is your way to go and you seem strong in your beliefs and happy with your choice, but it was your choice to make and I think that's the important part of what Mr. Silverman was saying.

“Life is neither good or evil, but only a place for good and evil.”
Marcus Aurelius

"In my opinion, there is a more scientific approach we can take to all hot-button issues. We do this when we stop demonizing the opposing viewpoints or victimizing ourselves, and we acknowledge and account for our own biases and emotions to the best of our ability."
--- Elliott C. Morgan

04-29-2016, 10:51 AM #10
damien50
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Quote:The bolded line really gets to the heart of it though. You have to have faith that every religious family is "the proper" kind of religious, which seems entirely subjective because every family will obviously think they are the proper kind of their religion, otherwise they wouldn't follow that version

I think that would fall in line with those that believe one should be married before having children and the reality is that a person can be a fail for their children whether married or not, it doesn't come down to religion or society but the individual's ability to cope with the world and make healthy decisions that are best for them and their child.

For some that choice is religion, especially if they feel it has helped them, but that in itself is a two edged sword and who knows how the child or parent might be sliced

The Continuation of the Truth

Isaiah 55:8-9 KJV For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord . [9] For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.