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Christian doctrine that are hard to reconcile to the rational mind.


03-22-2016, 05:45 PM #1
seekinheart
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1. The exclusivity of heaven and hell, so Joe bloggs who gets on with his life and has no concept of God but doesn't harm a fly goes to hell - hard to fathom, let's not forget God allowed the demons to lead Joe astray so he never considered God, and now because Joe didn't resist and didn't look for God who has never give Joe any tangible signs he's got to be punished!! Just cannot wrap my head around this one really can't.

2. Scientific discovery without the occult and individuals such as John Dee and Francis Bacon we would not have the scientific method, we would not have mathematics on the scale to further humanity, nor without the progress of psychology we would be able to treat people with mental illness we would simply be stating they are demonically possessed pray for them - which in a lot of cases has not worked and people ended up dying.

Without trying to understand illness which in no way does the Bible instruct us to do, in fact it actually tells us to not lean on our own understanding, to rely on God completely, we would have lots more deaths as people have done this and it's considered negligent as it could be prevented, isn't life to be preserved and if it can be hasn't God willed that so if you don't are you technically disobeying God's will and if you do God willed her dead, so it really makes no sense as to what God's will actually is. So is life here meaningless are we expected to not advance here all because God dictates us to not to do so because in his absence we have took to caring for our world and as he has not made himself relevant we are supposed to seek him out - if anything to me people talk about "waging war on god" to me it seems God has waged war on us and if anything at the very least he's left his actions slightly ambiguous.

3. The punishment for someone elses sin, the suffering for disobeying God - Now I disobeyed my parents the punishment is never as severe as God gives those in the garden of eden, Nor is their much logic to the punishment we are created as sinful now (way to go adam, duh) - punished for our sins, into a fallen world and somehow supposed to withstand this test beset before us to satisfy God who put the test before us in the first place, that is like me, saying to someone go and eat that bar of chocolate when they are on a diet and then telling them they shouldn't eat that bar of chocolate I'm going to force feed you chocolate now for the rest of your life.

These are just some issues Ive struggled with recently, and trusting God just doesn't seem to cut it for me I mean if this was a person doing these thing's we would be angry with them. But because its God he knows best.

03-22-2016, 06:01 PM #2
Todd
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(03-22-2016, 05:45 PM)seekinheart Wrote:  1. The exclusivity of heaven and hell, so Joe bloggs who gets on with his life and has no concept of God but doesn't harm a fly goes to hell - hard to fathom, let's not forget God allowed the demons to lead Joe astray so he never considered God, and now because Joe didn't resist and didn't look for God who has never give Joe any tangible signs he's got to be punished!! Just cannot wrap my head around this one really can't.

2. Scientific discovery without the occult and individuals such as John Dee and Francis Bacon we would not have the scientific method, we would not have mathematics on the scale to further humanity, nor without the progress of psychology we would be able to treat people with mental illness we would simply be stating they are demonically possessed pray for them - which in a lot of cases has not worked and people ended up dying.

Without trying to understand illness which in no way does the Bible instruct us to do, in fact it actually tells us to not lean on our own understanding, to rely on God completely, we would have lots more deaths as people have done this and it's considered negligent as it could be prevented, isn't life to be preserved and if it can be hasn't God willed that so if you don't are you technically disobeying God's will and if you do God willed her dead, so it really makes no sense as to what God's will actually is. So is life here meaningless are we expected to not advance here all because God dictates us to not to do so because in his absence we have took to caring for our world and as he has not made himself relevant we are supposed to seek him out - if anything to me people talk about "waging war on god" to me it seems God has waged war on us and if anything at the very least he's left his actions slightly ambiguous.

3. The punishment for someone elses sin, the suffering for disobeying God - Now I disobeyed my parents the punishment is never as severe as God gives those in the garden of eden, Nor is their much logic to the punishment we are created as sinful now (way to go adam, duh) - punished for our sins, into a fallen world and somehow supposed to withstand this test beset before us to satisfy God who put the test before us in the first place, that is like me, saying to someone go and eat that bar of chocolate when they are on a diet and then telling them they shouldn't eat that bar of chocolate I'm going to force feed you chocolate now for the rest of your life.

These are just some issues Ive struggled with recently, and trusting God just doesn't seem to cut it for me I mean if this was a person doing these thing's we would be angry with them. But because its God he knows best.

Good for you, using your brain and some rationale.  
1 & 3) Hell as eternal punishment is not Biblical.  There are many Bible believing Christian's that understand the concept of universal reconciliation.  Yes there is corrective punishment in the next age, for those who rejected God, but physical death in this lifetime is not the end of God's grace, love and work of redemption.

2) Not sure what your getting at.  Nothing in the Bible that tells we cannot embrace the scientific method or try to understand the physical world God has created.  Bible was never intended to be a scientific text.  While I believe Demon possession or Demonic oppression is real and I have sucessfully prayed with individuals for deliverance, I have also counseled others to seek professional psychiatric help.  It doesn't have to be one or the other...every situation is unique.  

If you are not happy with the answers that mainstream, institutional religion gives you, seek God for yourself and find out what he really says for yourself.  Not that you can't learn anything from religion, but the Bible says nothing about Blind faith.  It encourages us to study and seek for ourselves whether what we hear is truth or not.

Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;

And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did to one of these my brethren -- the least -- to me ye did
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03-22-2016, 06:51 PM #3
Artful Revealer
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On Hell. It refers to a spiritual state, not an abode of eternal torment. This is true in both Orthodox as well as many heterodox Christianities.

"Hell is nothing else but separation of man from God, his autonomy excluding him from the place where God is present." - Paul Evdokimov, In The World of the Church.

"Hell is none other than the state of separation from God, a condition into which humanity was plunged for having preferred the creature to the Creator. It is the human creature, therefore, and not God, who engenders hell. Created free for the sake of love, man possesses the incredible power to reject this love, to say 'no' to God. By refusing communion with God, he becomes a predator, condemning himself to a spiritual death (hell) more dreadful than the physical death that derives from it." - Michel Quenot, The Resurrection and the Icon.

"Hell is a spiritual state of separation from God and inability to experience the love of God, while being conscious of the ultimate deprivation of it as punishment." - Theodore Stylianopoulos


"Giving thanks to God for everything in our "ordinary" lives can help us to see at last that nothing in our lives is really ordinary. Life is never "ordinary". It is rather a passage from time into eternity. The circumstances that rise before us, the problems we encounter, the relationships we form, the choices we make, all ultimately concern our eternal union with or separation from God." - The Orthodox Family

One separated from God already undergoes torment, in the sense that his soul is lacking. A soul oblivious of God is by default imprisoned by the material boundaries in which it exists, and indebted to the lords of matter (demons).


On Science. I agree with Todd. The New Testament nowhere argues against reason or one's use of logics. In fact, the Logos, in Greek philosophy, is understood as a "reasoned discourse" and this is undeniably present in the reading of New Testament scripture, whether Jesus, Paul or other disciples. The ability to have reasoned discourse and logics is called a divine attribute because this is how one expresses truth. It does not relate with how much divine knowledge one possesses, but what a man does with the knowledge he does possess.


On Punishment.
Related to Hell, suffering from disobedience is not really the message of Christ. Suffering comes from ignorance of the Father in Heaven and knowledge of Him redeems. Sin is error due to this ignorance, for one who doesn't know God cannot know how to live by His word. Punishment belongs to the realm of Justice which belongs to the rulers of matter. The Father revealed in Christ forgives unconditionally and one can only know Him through the Son and the Holy Spirit. When you know Him, you have the Holy Spirit. If you blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, you fall into error and sin.

Matt 12:31-32. Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven. And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come.


All you have to do is recognize the Unkown Father revealed in Christ.


And he [the Living Christ] said, "Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death." - Gospel of Thomas

Faith receives, love gives. No one will be able to receive without faith. No one will be able to give without love. Because of this, in order that we may indeed receive, we believe, and in order that we may love, we give, since if one gives without love, he has no profit from what he has given. He who has received something other than the Lord is still a Hebrew. - Gospel of Philip
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03-22-2016, 06:56 PM #4
Lisa
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[quote='seekinheart' pid='58947' dateline='1458683121']
1. The exclusivity of heaven and hell, so Joe bloggs who gets on with his life and has no concept of God but doesn't harm a fly goes to hell - hard to fathom, let's not forget God allowed the demons to lead Joe astray so he never considered God, and now because Joe didn't resist and didn't look for God who has never give Joe any tangible signs he's got to be punished!! Just cannot wrap my head around this one really can't.

Does Joe do wrong things? Does Joe feel bad about the wrong things he does? If so, why would Joe feel bad? How does Joe think we all came to be? Or does Joe even think about those things? Does Joe think about death and what happens then?




2. Scientific discovery without the occult and individuals such as John Dee and Francis Bacon we would not have the scientific method, we would not have mathematics on the scale to further humanity, nor without the progress of psychology we would be able to treat people with mental illness we would simply be stating they are demonically possessed pray for them - which in a lot of cases has not worked and people ended up dying.

God did let the wheat and tares grow up together. Is psychiatry good then? We diagnose people and say well you've got this and it's not your fault and then people start to think there's a reason for everything it's got nothing to do with sin.




Without trying to understand illness which in no way does the Bible instruct us to do, in fact it actually tells us to not lean on our own understanding, to rely on God completely, we would have lots more deaths as people have done this and it's considered negligent as it could be prevented, isn't life to be preserved and if it can be hasn't God willed that so if you don't are you technically disobeying God's will and if you do God willed her dead, so it really makes no sense as to what God's will actually is. So is life here meaningless are we expected to not advance here all because God dictates us to not to do so because in his absence we have took to caring for our world and as he has not made himself relevant we are supposed to seek him out - if anything to me people talk about "waging war on god" to me it seems God has waged war on us and if anything at the very least he's left his actions slightly ambiguous.

Not leaning on our own understanding is about illness you say? Ya we rely on God, seek His will through prayer but that doesn't mean that He's gonna say-well I don't like dr's don't go. 

Seems to me life has advanced so I'm not sure why you think it's not supposed to or that Christians can't participate in any advances?If that were the case I wouldn't be on the Internet. 



3. The punishment for someone elses sin, the suffering for disobeying God - Now I disobeyed my parents the punishment is never as severe as God gives those in the garden of eden, Nor is their much logic to the punishment we are created as sinful now (way to go adam, duh) - punished for our sins, into a fallen world and somehow supposed to withstand this test beset before us to satisfy God who put the test before us in the first place, that is like me, saying to someone go and eat that bar of chocolate when they are on a diet and then telling them they shouldn't eat that bar of chocolate I'm going to force feed you chocolate now for the rest of your life.

God did warn Adam and Eve about if they ate from the tree-what more did you want Him to do? Ya it sucks that because of that, we all sin, but you can follow all God's rules on your own and never break one for yourself.....
God did provide the way out, you might not like the way out, but it is there for us.



These are just some issues Ive struggled with recently, and trusting God just doesn't seem to cut it for me I mean if this was a person doing these thing's we would be angry with them. But because its God he knows best.

These are just my thoughts, I don't know if I said anything that helped you, but I was trying to help. 

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.  1John 4:1

Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 1 Peter 5:8

03-23-2016, 01:00 PM #5
Axiom
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The origins of modern Christian doctrine, aka a lesson in how not to do theology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholasticism

Quote:As a program, scholasticism began as an attempt at harmonization on the part of medieval Christian thinkers: to harmonize the various authorities of their own tradition, and to reconcile Christian theology with classical and late antiquity philosophy, especially that of Aristotle but also of Neoplatonism.
This post was last modified: 03-23-2016, 01:01 PM by Axiom.