#Login Register
The Vigilant Citizen Forums
If you follow the Bible ...


12-04-2015, 01:32 AM #1
khadeejah
*****
Chaplain
Status: Offline Posts:2,466 Likes Received:6377
...and think the Quran has nothing to say to you, think again. These verses from the noble Quran are directed to you  - 'the People of the Scripture'


Say (O Muhammad,  to the Jews and Christians), "Dispute you with us about Allah while He is our Lord and your Lord? And we are to be rewarded for our deeds and you for your deeds. And we are sincere to Him in worship and obedience (i.e. we worship Him Alone and none else, and we obey His Orders)." (139) Or say you that Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Ya'qub (Jacob) and Al-Asbat [the twelve sons of Ya'qub (Jacob)] were Jews or Christians? Say, "Do you know better or does Allah (knows better… that they all were Muslims)? And who is more unjust than he who conceals the testimony he has from Allah? [i.e. to believe in Prophet Muhammad when he comes, written in their Books.]  And Allah is not unaware of what you do." (140)

Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam. Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, then surely, Allah is Swift in calling to account. (19) So if they dispute with you (Muhammad ) say: "I have submitted myself to Allah (in Islam), and (so have) those who follow me." And say to those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and to those who are illiterates (Arab pagans): "Do you (also) submit yourselves (to Allah in Islam)?" If they do, they are rightly guided; but if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message; and Allah is All-Seer of (His) slaves. (20)

Say (O Muhammad ): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allah, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allah. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims." (64) O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Why do you dispute about Ibrahim (Abraham), while the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) were not revealed till after him? Have you then no sense? (65) Verily, you are those who have disputed about that of which you have knowledge. Why do you then dispute concerning that which you have no knowledge? It is Allah Who knows, and you know not. (66) Ibrahim (Abraham) was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was a true Muslim Hanifa (Islamic Monotheism - to worship none but Allah Alone) and he was not of Al-Mushrikun (See V. 2:105). (67) Verily, among mankind who have the best claim to Ibrahim (Abraham) are those who followed him, and this Prophet (Muhammad ) and those who have believed (Muslims). And Allah is the Wali (Protector and Helper) of the believers. (68) A party of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) wish to lead you astray. But they shall not lead astray anyone except themselves, and they perceive not. (69) O people of the Scripture! (Jews and Christians): "Why do you disbelieve in the Ayat of Allah, [the Verses about Prophet Muhammad present in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] while you (yourselves) bear witness (to their truth)." (70) O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): "Why do you mix truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know?" (71)

Say: "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Why do you reject the Ayat of Allah (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) while Allah is Witness to what you do?" (98) Say: "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Why do you stop those who have believed, from the Path of Allah, seeking to make it seem crooked, while you (yourselves) are witnesses [to Muhammad as a Messenger of Allah and Islam (Allah's Religion, i.e. to worship none but Him Alone)]? And Allah is not unaware of what you do." (99)

O you who have been given the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Believe in what We have revealed (to Muhammad ) confirming what is (already) with you, before We efface faces (by making them like the back of necks; without nose, mouth, eyes, etc.) and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers. And the Commandment of Allah is always executed. (47) Verily, Allah forgives not that partners should be set up with him in worship, but He forgives except that (anything else) to whom He pleases, and whoever sets up partners with Allah in worship, he has indeed invented a tremendous sin. (48)


O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs. (171) The Messiah will never be proud to reject to be a slave to Allah, nor the angels who are near (to Allah). And whosoever rejects His worship and is proud, then He will gather them all together unto Himself. (172) So, as for those who believed (in the Oneness of Allah - Islamic Monotheism) and did deeds of righteousness, He will give their (due) rewards, and more out of His Bounty. But as for those who refuse His worship and were proud, He will punish them with a painful torment. And they will not find for themselves besides Allah any protector or helper.



O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Now has come to you Our Messenger (Muhammad ) explaining to you much of that which you used to hide from the Scripture and passing over (i.e. leaving out without explaining) much. Indeed, there has come to you from Allah a light (Prophet Muhammad ) and a plain Book (this Quran). (15) Wherewith Allah guides all those who seek His Good Pleasure to ways of peace, and He brings them out of darkness by His Will unto light and guides them to a Straight Way (Islamic Monotheism). (16) Surely, in disbelief are they who say that Allah is the Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary). Say (O Muhammad): "Who then has the least power against Allah, if He were to destroy the Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), his mother, and all those who are on the earth together?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them. He creates what He wills. And Allah is Able to do all things. (17)


O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Now has come to you Our Messenger (Muhammad ) making (things) clear unto you, after a break in (the series of) Messengers, lest you say: "There came unto us no bringer of glad tidings and no warner." But now has come unto you a bringer of glad tidings and a warner. And Allah is Able to do all things. (19)


Say: "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do you criticize us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah, and in (the revelation) which has been sent down to us and in that which has been sent down before (us), and that most of you are Fasiqun [rebellious and disobedient (to Allah)]?" (59) Say (O Muhammad to the people of the Scripture): "Shall I inform you of something worse than that, regarding the recompense from Allah: those (Jews) who incurred the Curse of Allah and His Wrath, those of whom (some) He transformed into monkeys and swines, those who worshipped Taghut (false deities); such are worse in rank (on the Day of Resurrection in the Hell-fire), and far more astray from the Right Path (in the life of this world)." (60)

Say (O Muhammad) "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! You have nothing (as regards guidance) till you act according to the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), and what has (now) been sent down to you from your Lord (the Quran)." Verily, that which has been sent down to you (Muhammad) from your Lord increases in many of them their obstinate rebellion and disbelief. So be not sorrowful over the people who disbelieve.

Say (O Muhammad): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Exceed not the limits in your religion (by believing in something) other than the truth, and do not follow the vain desires of people who went astray in times gone by, and who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the Right Path."

 O you who believe [in Musa (Moses) (i.e. Jews) and 'Iesa (Jesus) (i.e. Christians)]! Fear Allah, and believe too in His Messenger (Muhammad), He will give you a double portion of His Mercy, and He will give you a light by which you shall walk (straight), and He will forgive you. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (28) So that the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) may know that they have no power whatsoever over the Grace of Allah, and that (His) Grace is (entirely) in His Hand to bestow it on whomsoever He wills. And Allah is the Owner of Great Bounty. (29)


The following 3 users Like khadeejah's post:
  • The Creeper, Kung Fu, Tarikko

12-04-2015, 02:27 AM #2
Axiom
***
Marshall
Status: Offline Posts:333 Likes Received:343
You have made your agenda apparent enough at this juncture that a thread like this is redundant. If this isn't shilling I don't know what is.

12-04-2015, 03:52 AM #3
Sidhuriel
*****
Chaplain
Status: Offline Posts:2,003 Likes Received:5756
The difference between Islam and Christianity is crystal clear:

Christians believe in a saviour; Muslims don't.

The saviour we have is what makes Christianity stand out from all other religions; it is the only religion with a saviour. As there can only be one Truth; to me it makes sense that it would be that religion which has one thing no other religion has.

Islam has most likely been introduced to Muhammad through Catholic travellers who met him and his caravan; hence the dress of women which is much like nuns ; the praying 5 times a day like a priest and so forth.

The God of the Bible says none should pray in 'vain repetitions'' like the heathens. Muslims pray 5 times a day and repeat the same phrases over and over.

Matthew 6:7
6"But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you. 7"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. 8"So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.…''

So I am sorry; I could go on but for me it is clear that Islam is a deception.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness
Only light can do that
Hate can't drive out hate
Only love can do that
Heart
The following 1 user Likes Sidhuriel's post:
  • MissMiami

12-04-2015, 04:27 AM #4
Tarikko
*****
Chaplain
Status: Offline Posts:3,799 Likes Received:9301
Sidhuriel,

How do YOU know that you are not the subject of that deception yourself?

And why would a savior affirm Christianity?

You know how many problems this would raise?

"No bearer of sins can carry the sins of another"


"The acid test is within the book itself". Muhammad PBUH could not read or write.

What did Muhammad preach?

To worship the Creator ALONE and not to associate anything with him, the devil is a plain enemy, belief in the angels, the prophets, the last day (Judgment), heave and hell, prayer, Charity, chastity, truthfulness, the 10 commandments, purity of the soul and body, righteous deeds...

So how are we deceived again?

God begetting, God into a man and man into a God, God dying for our sins, Blood sacrifice... Are all pagan concepts

Yourself you admitted that Christmas is a pagan element that has been inserted maliciously into Christianity..

What makes you so certain that this is the sole element inserted into the faith?

Islam did not come as a new religion... rather an affirmation/restoration of the Abrahmic Faith
This post was last modified: 12-04-2015, 08:30 AM by Tarikko.


“The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped round this man (Muhammad) are disgraceful to ourselves only.”


― Thomas Carlyle, On Heroes, Hero Worship and the Heroic in History





The following 2 users Like Tarikko's post:
  • The Creeper, peacebeuponall

12-04-2015, 04:39 AM #5
Sidhuriel
*****
Chaplain
Status: Offline Posts:2,003 Likes Received:5756
(12-04-2015, 04:27 AM)Tarikko Wrote:  Sidhuriel,

How do YOU know that you are not the subject of that deception yourself?

And why would a savior affirm Christianity?

You know how many problems this would raise?

"No bearer of sins can carry the sins of another"


"The acid test is within the book itself". Muhammad PBUH could not read or write.

What did Muhammad preach?

To worship the Creator ALONE and not to associate anything with him, the devil is a plain enemy, belief in the angels, the prophets, the last day (Judgment), heave and hell, prayer, Charity, chastity, truthfulness, the 10 commandments, purity of the soul and body, righteous deeds...

So how are we deceived again?

God begetting, God into a man and man into a God, God dying for our sins, Blood sacrifice... Are all pagan concepts

Yourself you admitted that Christmas is a pagan element that has been inserted maliciously into Christianity..

What makes you so certain that this is the sole element inserted into the faith?

Islam did not come as a new religion... rather an affirmation of the Abrahmic Faith

I said that Christmas is not a Christian holiday; I don't consider the Catholic church to be an example of Christianity and many Christians agree with me. There are plenty of Christians who don't worship on a sunday; who don't celebrate pagan holidays and keep the commandments. I belong to Christians who worship the sabbath from friday to saturday and who believe the old Covenant was fulfilled with Jesus rather than abolished. This means the Law is still valid for us.

This video explains the origins of my beliefs very well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IZzAxLXDRk

I can make a list of pagan concepts in Islam too; such as animal sacrifice (Offering feast), Repetitive praying of chant-like prayers; worship of a stone; pilgrimages like the Catholics etc.. This doesn't contribute to the discussion but will just be mud throwing from one to another.

That Muhammad couln't read doesn't say anything; if he talked to Catholic priests on his journeys he could learn the faith from them without much difficulty if he was smart enough.

I am so certain about this because for the pas 11 years I have searched for the Truth and found that the religion with the most consistent story was Christianity in it's original form; and the saviour does make Christianity unique. All other religions rely on man saving himself by good deeds; which I believe is impossible as I know of no one who doesn't sin.

I also read about Islam exentsively; and I came to this conclusion. I know we aren't going to agree; and that's OK. This is just my take on things; and after receiving the Holy Spirit in my life I have changed so much that I can't believe anything other than this would be Truth.
This post was last modified: 12-04-2015, 04:41 AM by Sidhuriel.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness
Only light can do that
Hate can't drive out hate
Only love can do that
Heart
The following 1 user Likes Sidhuriel's post:
  • MissMiami

12-04-2015, 04:58 AM #6
Tarikko
*****
Chaplain
Status: Offline Posts:3,799 Likes Received:9301
It is perfectly fine if we don't agree Sid.

You are amongst the sincere Christians here and that is more than enough for me.

WE are both united by our love for Christ. He is one of the most important Prophets of God in Islam.

We believe in his immaculate conception, the miracles He performed by the leave of God, the original Gospel and we are awaiting his second arrival as we believe he will lead the Muslims in the battle against the Antichrist.

There is nothing Pagan about Islam Sid. The Kaaba is not Holy. The rbicks that make the Kaaba are no holier than the bricks you find on any building. It is simply a direction where our prayers culminate.

The pilgrimage to Mecca serves many purposes

In Islam, you worship NONE but the Creator. No angel or prophet, no picture, or shrine.. no planet or star... We worship the Creator SOLELY.

As for the "chanting" this is where we praise the Lord. Allahu Akbar.. God is the greatest. This is no chanting.

We believe that good deeds alone will not save us. Correct. Here is where the Mercy of God comes into place.

If good deeds alone are there while God is unjust, then our deeds are in vain. But because God is merciful and compassionate, when he sees us striving and taking one step towards him, he will take 10 towards us.

So good deeds + God's mercy. No prophet or person would avail us or come between us and our Lord on that day. This is our belief. WE HAVE A SAVIOR AND THAT IS GOD HIMSELF.

The animal sacrifice... but this is Abrahmic.. I didn't know that the feeding of the poor was a Pagan ritual

The blood does not reach God. Rather the piety and the act of feeding the poor.

22:37

Their meat will not reach Allah , nor will their blood, but what reaches Him is piety from you. Thus have We subjected them to you that you may glorify Allah for that [to] which He has guided you; and give good tidings to the doers of good.

You say Muhammad could have learned from Catholic Priests?

You know the Quran itself is a miraculous book. So no matter how much info he would have gathered, no human is capable of coming about with such a book, that is beyond perfection from every angle

As I stated earlier, the acid test lies within the Book itself. Encyclopedias atop encyclopedias have been written about the Quran, and yet, it can't do it justice. Smile

Assalam Smile

P.S:

This is from another Thread if you are interested:

Prophet Muhammad could not read or write. Prophet Muhammad, for 40 years prior to his revelation, was known to his people as Al Ameen (the trustworthy one) and Al Sadeq (the honest one). People used to go to him to settle their disputes and this was before he received his first revelation.

"The Qur’an was revealed in Arabia to the Prophet Muhammad in the 7th century. This period was known as an era of literary and linguistic perfection. The 7th century Arabs were socialised into being a people who were the best at expressing themselves in their native tongue. They would celebrate when a poet rose amongst them and all they knew was poetry. They would start with poetry and end in poetry. The cultivation of poetic skills and linguistic mastery was everything for them. It was their oxygen and life blood; they could not live or function without the perfection of their linguistic abilities. However, when the Qur’an was recited to them they lost their breath, they were dumbfounded, incapacitated, and stunned by the silence of their greatest orators. They could not produce anything like the Qur’anic discourse. It got worse. The Qur’an challenged these linguists par excellence to imitate its unique literary and linguistic features. They failed."

The challenge still stands. You can write encyclopedias atop encyclopedias about the Quran and you will still not do it justice.

The Quran is Islam's everlasting miracle.

God offered the Qur'an as the Prophet's sign in the same way as He offered signs for all the other prophets. He sent the things most appropriate to the time in which they were sent. Thus Prophet Musa (as) had the power to divide the sea with his hand and rod, and to let the rock burst forth with water in the desert, and all his other signs in a time of magic.

And Prophet Issa (as) had the power to bring the dead back to life, to make birds out of clay, to cure those who had been blind from birth and the leprous, and all his other signs in a time of medicine. And Prophet Muhammad (S) had the book and all his other signs in a time of eloquence.

If the Prophet had performed some miracle other than the Qur’an, it would have no meaning for that people, given their mental structure. The path would have been open for all kinds of doubt and hesitation. But the Arabs of that age who were addressed by the Qur’an could never have any doubts about its extraordinary eloquence, for they were all aware of all the mysteries of rhetoric and had living among them masters of language and literary composition, hence their admitting that the Qur’an could not have been the production of Prophet Muhammad .

The language of the Qur'an is unsurpassed in its accuracy of meaning and expression.

And what did Muhammad preach after all?

The uniqueness of God and to worship God and God alone, to believe in ALL the Prophets, to believe in the angels and the judgment day, heaven and hell, to pray, to do charity, to be patient, not to be arrogant, the ten commandments, to be dutiful to your parents, to give in full measure, not to dupe and cheat people, no backbiting, no slandering, no vice, no lying, chastity as a virtue...

All of the above argue the fundamental honesty of the Prophet.

There was a thread a while back made by a Christian Zionist: "did the Vatican invent Islam"...

I can't tell you how ridiculous that claim was. You can check it out

http://vigilantcitizen.com/forums/Thread...ican+islam



Assalam Sid, and God bless
This post was last modified: 12-04-2015, 08:31 AM by Tarikko.


“The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped round this man (Muhammad) are disgraceful to ourselves only.”


― Thomas Carlyle, On Heroes, Hero Worship and the Heroic in History





The following 6 users Like Tarikko's post:
  • khadeejah, The Creeper, peacebeuponall, Serendipity, Kung Fu, Sidhuriel

12-04-2015, 05:23 AM #7
Sidhuriel
*****
Chaplain
Status: Offline Posts:2,003 Likes Received:5756
(12-04-2015, 04:58 AM)Tarikko Wrote:  It is perfectly fine if we don't agree Sid.

You are amongst the sincere Christians here and that is more than enough for me.

WE are both united by our love for Christ. He is one of the most important Prophets of God in Islam.

We believe in his immaculate conception, the miracles He performed by the leave of God, the original Gospel and we are awaiting his second arrival as we believe he will lead the Muslims in the battle against the Antichrist.

There is nothing Pagan about Islam Sid. The Kaaba is not Holy. The rbicks that make the Kaaba are no holier than the bricks you find on any building. It is simply a direction where our prayers culminate.

The pilgrimage to Mecca serves many purposes

In Islam, you worship NONE but the Creator. No angel or prophet, no picture, or shrine.. no planet or star... We worship the Creator SOLELY.

As for the "chanting" this is where we praise the Lord. Allahu Akbar.. God is the greatest. This is no chanting.

We believe that good deeds alone will not save us. Correct. Here is where the Mercy of God comes into place.

If good deeds alone are there while God is unjust, then our deeds are in vain. But because God is merciful and compassionate, when he sees us striving and taking one step towards him, he will take 10 towards us.

So good deeds + God's mercy. No prophet or person would avail us or come between us and our Lord on that day. This is our belief. WE HAVE A SAVIOR AND THAT IS GOD HIMSELF.

The animal sacrifice... but this is Abrahmic..

The blood does not reach God. Rather the piety and the act of feeding the poor.

22:37

Their meat will not reach Allah , nor will their blood, but what reaches Him is piety from you. Thus have We subjected them to you that you may glorify Allah for that [to] which He has guided you; and give good tidings to the doers of good.

You say Muhammad could have learned from Catholic Priests?

You know the Quran itself is a miraculous book. So no matter how much info he would have gathered, no human is capable of coming about with such a book, that is beyond perfection from every angle

As I stated earlier, the acid test lies within the Book itself. Encyclopedias atop encyclopedias have been written about the Quran, and yet, it can't do it justice. Smile

Assalam Smile

P.S:

This is from another Thread if you are interested:

Prophet Muhammad could not read or write. Prophet Muhammad, for 40 years prior to his revelation, was known to his people as Al Ameen (the trustworthy one) and Al Sadeq (the honest one). People used to go to him to settle their disputes and this was before he received his first revelation.

"The Qur’an was revealed in Arabia to the Prophet Muhammad in the 7th century. This period was known as an era of literary and linguistic perfection. The 7th century Arabs were socialised into being a people who were the best at expressing themselves in their native tongue. They would celebrate when a poet rose amongst them and all they knew was poetry. They would start with poetry and end in poetry. The cultivation of poetic skills and linguistic mastery was everything for them. It was their oxygen and life blood; they could not live or function without the perfection of their linguistic abilities. However, when the Qur’an was recited to them they lost their breath, they were dumbfounded, incapacitated, and stunned by the silence of their greatest orators. They could not produce anything like the Qur’anic discourse. It got worse. The Qur’an challenged these linguists par excellence to imitate its unique literary and linguistic features. They failed."

The challenge still stands. You can write encyclopedias atop encyclopedias about the Quran and you will still not do it justice.

The Quran is Islam's everlasting miracle.

God offered the Qur'an as the Prophet's sign in the same way as He offered signs for all the other prophets. He sent the things most appropriate to the time in which they were sent. Thus Prophet Musa (as) had the power to divide the sea with his hand and rod, and to let the rock burst forth with water in the desert, and all his other signs in a time of magic.

And Prophet Issa (as) had the power to bring the dead back to life, to make birds out of clay, to cure those who had been blind from birth and the leprous, and all his other signs in a time of medicine. And Prophet Muhammad (S) had the book and all his other signs in a time of eloquence.

If the Prophet had performed some miracle other than the Qur’an, it would have no meaning for that people, given their mental structure. The path would have been open for all kinds of doubt and hesitation. But the Arabs of that age who were addressed by the Qur’an could never have any doubts about its extraordinary eloquence, for they were all aware of all the mysteries of rhetoric and had living among them masters of language and literary composition, hence their admitting that the Qur’an could not have been the production of Prophet Muhammad .

The language of the Qur'an is unsurpassed in its accuracy of meaning and expression.

And what did Muhammad preach after all?

The uniqueness of God and to worship God and God alone, to believe in ALL the Prophets, to believe in the angels and the judgment day, heaven and hell, to pray, to do charity, to be patient, not to be arrogant, the ten commandments, to be dutiful to your parents, to give in full measure, not to dupe and cheat people, no backbiting, no slandering, no vice, no lying, chastity as a virtue...

All of the above argue the fundamental honesty of the Prophet.

There was a thread a while back made by a Christian Zionist: "did the Vatican invent Islam"...

I can't tell you how ridiculous that claim was. You can check it out

http://vigilantcitizen.com/forums/Thread...ican+islam



Assalam Sid, and God bless

Thank you for your kind post; we agree on the disagreement then. That's good; I'm glad you can look at it that way and keep a civil discussion. Thank you for that.

As far as I know there is a verse in the Quran saying that on the day of Judgement; God will teach us about what we disagreed upon? And another one saying that people of the Book will not be condemned to hellfire if they were sincere believers? So if I am wrong; we will be able to laugh about it in heaven ;Wink
And well; if you are wrong.. I believe God is merciful and just first and foremost; so we will see Smile

Now for the points you bring up in your post; you say nothing in Islam is pagan and I can understand that this is your sincere belief. I also agree that within Islamic culture the focus is very much on the worship of God alone; and I believe that is a good thing.

However; the Bible says we are tainted by our sins and cannot reach God without Jesus freeing us from our tarnished state. This does not mean good deeds are useless; it does mean that no matter how hard we try; we cannot reach perfection alone. We need to be reshapen by the Holy spirit of God in order to become free and innocent in the eyes of God.

Islam; like Catholicism teaches a system of rewards and punishments from God; if you pray so many verses of X you get so many rewards in heaven; if you recite God's name 99 times with a chain you get X amount of rewards etc. Catholics believe this too; that's why they have the rosary. I see a lot of similarities between the two. But ofcourse; Islam has a lot of different subgroups too; so probably what I have seen is not entirely representative of 100% of Muslims. Probably not; but this is what I know from personal experience.

And I do believe that Muhammad wrote the Quran without being able to read or write;  automatic writing is something that is very common in pagan and paranormal circles. One enters a trance state through meditation; grabs a piece of paper and a pen and lets a spirit or demon channel through them. Aleister Crowley's book of The Law was channeled this way.

Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_writing

Video about the life of Aleister Crowley :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZ9SPKGsxeQ

Darkness cannot drive out darkness
Only light can do that
Hate can't drive out hate
Only love can do that
Heart
The following 3 users Like Sidhuriel's post:
  • The Creeper, MissMiami, Tarikko

12-04-2015, 05:44 AM #8
Tarikko
*****
Chaplain
Status: Offline Posts:3,799 Likes Received:9301
Christians and Jews if they are dutiful towards their Lord and follow it with righteous deeds, WILL be admitted to heaven, according to Islam.

"Surely, those who believe, those who are the Jews and the Sabians and the Christians – whosoever believed in Allaah and the Last Day, and worked righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
[al-Maa’idah 5: 69]

“Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allaah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.” [al-Baqarah 2: 62]

As for Prayers Sid, if your heart is dark and you are praying, your prayers will just be washed away like dust on a windy day.

Prayer is nothing without deeds.

"It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West (in prayer); but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah-fearing." 2:177

So no matter how much you recite a certain prayer, it will not avail you unless you do righteousness and you are sincere in your worship of God.

Yes it is a system of rewards and punishment, which makes sense.

"You reap what you sow"... that is a universal principle. How unfair/unjust would God be if you went and committed every kind of atrocity and evil deed, yet you will be forgiven just because someone decided to carry your sins for you.

How could Muhammad have written the Quran?

Let us say he did.. how can a human being create something so perfect with no errors or contradictions.

A book that is memorized by millions cover to cover, across the Globe?

"Prophet Muhammad is the most fully documented person in antiquity and history. This fact enables us to examine closely the claim that he wrote the Qur’an himself. This is a topic of volumes, as scholars have discussed in detail hundreds of strong evidences that establish the divine origin of the Qur’an. Considering the scope of this booklet, we will mention just a few.

First, it was well-known among the early Arabs of Mecca that the Prophet Muhammad did not read or write, and was not formally educated. The Qur’an itself states that the Prophet was unlettered, specifically in the sense that he could not read or write. No one in the Meccan community attempted to deny this claim of the Qur’an: “Believe, then, in God and His Messenger – the unlettered Prophet who believes in God and His words – and follow him, so that you might find guidance!” (7:158)

As is recorded in his biography, when the angel Gabriel approached the Prophet for the first time at the age of 40, and revealed to him the first verse of the Qur’an, “Read!”, the Prophet’s response was that he was unable to read. Thus even at the start of revelation, the Prophet was in no position to compose a book. Indeed as the Qur’an states, the Prophet’s being unlettered was itself a matter of divine wisdom: “Never have you recited Scripture before this (Qur’an oh Prophet)! Nor have you transcribed one with your right hand. For then, the progenitors of falsehood would have had cause to doubt (the revelation).” (29:48)

Second, in various instances in the life of the Prophet Muhammad where a problem arose, he was unable to find a solution until it was revealed to him by God. In many of these instances, the answer was delayed often causing the Prophet great anxiety. If the Prophet had devised the answers himself, why would he need to wait on revelation? Here are a few examples:

Once a group of people accused the Prophet’s wife Aisha of adultery. The slanderous accusations shook the community in Medina, and resulted in the Prophet separating from his wife temporarily. During this extremely difficult ordeal he did not know what to do. Finally, verses were revealed that established the innocence of Aisha and rebuked those who made the false accusations against her.

The leaders of Quraysh once asked the Prophet a few questions in order to test him and to see if he really is the Messenger of God. They asked about stories and issues, such as the Seven Sleepers, Dhul Qarnain, the nature of the spirit, etc. Weeks had passed and the Prophet would not give any answers, because he did not have knowledge of them at that time. As a result of the delay, the Prophet was accused of being a liar by the Quraysh. Finally, the Prophet received by revelation a whole chapter of the Qur’an, called the Cave (Chapter 18), as well as other verses, answering all the questions asked to the Prophet by the Quraysh.

In the early days of Islam, the Muslims used to face Jerusalem while praying. The Prophet wished and wanted to change the direction of prayer from Jerusalem to Mecca. But he did not instigate the change himself; instead, he waited for a command from his Lord, raising his head towards the heavens in anticipation. The Qur’an states: “We have seen you (O Prophet) often turn your face towards heaven…” (Qur’an 2:144). Thereafter God’s commands arrived, and Muslims immediately turned their faces towards the direction of Mecca, turning from North to South.

In all of these incidents and many others the Prophet did not act until revelation came to him with an explicit answer or command. This was the case even though the delay caused him to be rebuked and accused of being a false Prophet. If the Qur’an were from the Prophet, surely he could have “revealed” the verses earlier. This shows the Quran is a revelation from God, and not from Muhammad’s own imagination.

Third, the Arabs, both Muslims and non-Muslim, have testified to the high caliber and literal mastery of the Qur’an:

· Umar bin al Khattab used to be a judge of the poetry festival in Mecca. His mastery of the Arabic language was superb. Nonetheless, when he heard a portion of the Qur’an, he was spellbound, and because of it embraced Islam. How could the Prophet produce such a literal masterpiece at the age of 40 when he had never shown such talent before?

· Similarly, there were many others like At-Tufayl bin Amr al-Dawsi, Utbah bin Rabiha and others who had such experiences when they heard portions of the Qur’an. They would repeat statements such as, “I have heard words of such that I never heard before. By God, it is not poetry, nor magic, nor divination.” This was often their first impression. This shows that the Qur’an was something beyond the Prophet’s talent or genius, as its origin was other than the Prophet Muhammad.

Fourth, there is a marked difference between the Prophet’s sayings and Qur’anic verses. The Prophet’s sayings are recorded in volumes, called hadith, which are more voluminous than the Qur’an. When he spoke, his sayings were not accompanied with any extraordinary experiences, but when he received the revelation he would often experience abnormal sensations. When verses were revealed to him, sometimes he would sweat even on cold days, his face would become red, his body would become heavy, etc. Was he just acting? Definitely not! How could he have lived such a pretentious and complicated life for 23 years? This is indeed the difference between the hadith and the Qur’an. As for the Qur’an, he received it by revelation from God verbatim, and as for the hadith, they were his own words.

Another crucial point in this respect is the huge difference between the linguistic style of the Qur’an and that of hadith. A comparison of both suggests unequivocally that the author of the Qur’an is entirely different from that of the hadith. It is also recorded authentically that the Arabs themselves were surprised by the language of the Qur’an because the Prophet was not known to have composed any literal piece before its revelation. Clearly, the language of the Qur’an was not from Muhammad’s own tongue. Even non-Arabic speaking people can see this vast difference in style and language between the Qur’an and the hadith, even by reading translations.


Fifth, a good portion of the Qur’an includes stories of previous Prophets and their nations. Always, the concluding remark is that the Prophet had no previous knowledge of any of those stories or historical events, and that he only knew of them through revelation, for example:

· After relating the story of Moses and Pharaoh the Qur’an states: “You were not (there, O Prophet,) on the western mountainside (of Tur) when We decreed to Moses the Commandments. Nor were you (there among those) of the Children of Israel who bore witness (to these events). Furthermore, We brought forth (many) generations (after Moses), such that the life spans (of heedlessness) that stretched over them grew (so very) long – (until they forgot God’s Covenant). Moreover, you were not (there with Moses when he was) dwelling among the people of Midian, conveying Our message unto them…” (28:44-45)

· The Qur’an also states after the story of Jesus and Mary: “This account of something that was beyond the reach of your perception We [now] reveal unto you: for you were not with them when they drew lots as to which of them should be Mary's guardian, and you were not with them when they contended [about it] with one another.” (3:44)

· It also states after the story of Joseph: “This is (but one) of the tidings of the unseen (past) that We reveal to you, (O Prophet). For you were not with them when they resolved (to execute) their (evil) affair, and while they were plotting (it).” (12:102)


Verses like the above appear routinely after the stories in the Qur’an. Thus, if the Prophet had learned these stories from Jews and Christians, why should he ascribe them to God? Is he such a blatant liar?

Sixth, the Qur’an severely criticized the Prophet on several issues:

· The Prophet was once sitting with some of the leaders of Quraysh, inviting them to Islam. A blind man, Abdullah bin Umm Makhtum, who was already a Muslim, came to the Prophet to ask him some questions regarding Islam. The Prophet ignored him, as he was busy delivering the message of Islam to the leaders of Quraysh, hoping they would come to Islam. Thereupon the revelation came reproaching and reprimanding him: “He frowned and turned away because the blind man approached him. Yet for all you did know (O Muhammad) he might perhaps have grown in purity?” (80:1-3).

· The Prophet used to love to eat honey. Once he refused to consume any honey after his wives discouraged him to do so, as a result of a quarrel they were having among themselves. God again reproached and reprimanded him: “O Prophet! Why do you, out of a desire to please [one or another of] your wives impose [on yourself] a prohibition of something that God has made lawful to you?” (66:1).

· At the time of the battle of Tabuk, some hypocrites came and asked the Prophet to excuse them from participating in the campaign. The merciful Prophet accepted their excuse. Thereupon revelation came down upon him again reproaching and reprimanding him: “May God pardon you (O Prophet)! Why did you grant them permission (to stay at home) before it had become obvious to you as to who was speaking truth and (before) you came to know (who were) the liars” (9:43).

There are many other incidents in which the Prophet was reproached and reprimanded by God. The logical question here is why would the Prophet make up these verses? Even if someone had revealed these verses to him, why would he retain them while having a firm belief that these verses will be recited and read throughout the ages? The logical and factual answer is that these are not the words of the Prophet, and he is not the author of the Qur’an.

Seventh, one of the major themes of the Qur’an is that the source of the Qur’an is God Himself. The Prophet did not have any right to add or subtract from what had been revealed:

If he (Muhammad) had dared to attribute some of (his own) sayings unto Us, we would indeed have seized him by his right hand and would indeed have cut his life-vein.” (69:44-46)

If the Prophet was really the author of the Qur’an, why did he have to state these words? Was he a sheer liar to the extent that he both concocted the Qur’an and devised threats against himself? History and logic would refute this claim, especially since the Prophet was known never to have uttered a lie in his whole life. Before Prophet-hood, even the pagan idolaters attested to his truthfulness, and he was known as the “Trustworthy” and“Truthful” .Are we to believe that suddenly, at the age of 40, the Prophet not only began to utter a long string of lies but that these lies were against God Himself? Simply illogical!

http://mercyprophet.org/mul/node/3329

Assalam Sid and God bless
This post was last modified: 12-04-2015, 05:48 AM by Tarikko.


“The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped round this man (Muhammad) are disgraceful to ourselves only.”


― Thomas Carlyle, On Heroes, Hero Worship and the Heroic in History





The following 3 users Like Tarikko's post:
  • The Creeper, Serendipity, sophiaponders

12-04-2015, 06:02 AM #9
sophiaponders
*****
Chaplain
Status: Offline Posts:1,315 Likes Received:2148
(12-04-2015, 03:52 AM)Sidhuriel Wrote:  The difference between Islam and Christianity is crystal clear:

Christians believe in a saviour; Muslims don't.

The saviour we have is what makes Christianity stand out from all other religions; it is the only religion with a saviour. As there can only be one Truth; to me it makes sense that it would be that religion which has one thing no other religion has.

Islam has most likely been introduced to Muhammad through Catholic travellers who met him and his caravan; hence the dress of women which is much like nuns ; the praying 5 times a day like a priest and so forth.

The God of the Bible says none should pray in 'vain repetitions'' like the heathens. Muslims pray 5 times a day and repeat the same phrases over and over.

Matthew 6:7
6"But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you. 7"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. 8"So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.…''

So I am sorry; I could go on but for me it is clear that Islam is a deception.

Quote:The difference between Islam and Christianity is crystal clear:

Christians believe in a saviour; Muslims don't.

BS... The Quran says Jesus is the Messiah and all Muslims are waiting for his second coming.
Regardless of what the wahabbis in control of Mecca are saying and are confusing people of Mecca (while they (the wahabbi sauds) even demolished Mohammad (pbuh) house ) All Muslims believe Jesus is the Messiah and waiting for him to come back
This post was last modified: 12-04-2015, 06:08 AM by sophiaponders.

*************************************
If you are interested in Palestine feel free to join my group https://www.facebook.com/groups/101464189944996/
**************************************
The following 5 users Like sophiaponders's post:
  • The Creeper, Annonymous Damsel, Kung Fu, Serendipity, Tarikko

12-04-2015, 07:28 AM #10
Sidhuriel
*****
Chaplain
Status: Offline Posts:2,003 Likes Received:5756
(12-04-2015, 06:02 AM)sophiaponders Wrote:  
(12-04-2015, 03:52 AM)Sidhuriel Wrote:  The difference between Islam and Christianity is crystal clear:

Christians believe in a saviour; Muslims don't.

The saviour we have is what makes Christianity stand out from all other religions; it is the only religion with a saviour. As there can only be one Truth; to me it makes sense that it would be that religion which has one thing no other religion has.

Islam has most likely been introduced to Muhammad through Catholic travellers who met him and his caravan; hence the dress of women which is much like nuns ; the praying 5 times a day like a priest and so forth.

The God of the Bible says none should pray in 'vain repetitions'' like the heathens. Muslims pray 5 times a day and repeat the same phrases over and over.

Matthew 6:7
6"But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you. 7"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. 8"So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.…''

So I am sorry; I could go on but for me it is clear that Islam is a deception.

Quote:The difference between Islam and Christianity is crystal clear:

Christians believe in a saviour; Muslims don't.

BS...  The Quran says Jesus is the Messiah and all Muslims are waiting for his second coming.
Regardless of what the wahabbis in control of Mecca are saying and are confusing people of Mecca (while they (the wahabbi sauds) even demolished Mohammad (pbuh) house ) All Muslims believe Jesus is the Messiah and waiting for him to come back

Ok if you call my post BS Sophia; why on earth are you a Christian?

If there is no difference between Islam and Christianity; what are you waiting for? Become a muslim now!

Darkness cannot drive out darkness
Only light can do that
Hate can't drive out hate
Only love can do that
Heart
The following 1 user Likes Sidhuriel's post:
  • The Creeper