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Scriptural (biblical) Answers


12-01-2015, 08:12 PM #1
morilko
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I'd like to offer alternative but Scriptural answers to those curly questions which don't ever seem to be satisfactorily answered. My answers will be probably be different than the standard responses but I'll back them up with Scripture. Fire away.
This post was last modified: 12-02-2015, 08:50 PM by morilko.

12-02-2015, 02:50 AM #2
erucysae
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Nice to meet you morilko! Which scriptures in particular?

By the time, verily, man is in loss.

RIDDLER, GO AWAY LOL

~LV
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12-02-2015, 02:57 AM #3
morilko
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(12-02-2015, 02:50 AM)erucysae Wrote:  Nice to meet you morilko! Which scriptures in particular?
Hi, nice to meet you too Wink
Yeah sorry, I meant the Bible. I prefer to call them the Scriptures to talk about a "literal" translation rather than any number of strange and contradictory translations. Amazing what happens when you don't get muddled up with the translations.
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12-02-2015, 08:36 AM #4
Axiom
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What is your interpretation of such passages as John 6:53-56, I Corinthians 10:16-18 and 11:23-28, Revelation 19:17-18?
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12-02-2015, 08:26 PM #5
morilko
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(12-02-2015, 08:36 AM)Axiom Wrote:  What is your interpretation of such passages as John 6:53-56, I Corinthians 10:16-18 and 11:23-28, Revelation 19:17-18?
Hi,
All these passage clearly have something to do with eating bread and drinking blood, which is where the accusation of cannibalism came from for the early believers.

John 6:53-56
53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. (NASB)


First thing is that the word eternal isn't "eternal". It's "eonian" or age-long. It's a period of time (maybe quite long) with a beginning and an ending. It's impossible for this word to mean "eternal" for a whole bunch of reasons, which I'm happy to go into in more detail if asked. One example of why it can't mean "eternal" is 2 Tim 1:9 "given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian". Of course "before times eternal" makes no sense whatsoever, seeing as eternity has no beginning or ending.


The passage takes place after Jesus fed a load of people from nearly nothing, walked on water and then talked to the people about Moses, manna and bread from heaven. Verse 48 Jesus tells them he is the bread of life, which is a contrast with the bread from heaven (manna) which their ancestors had in the wilderness. The contrast is with eating manna and still dying, with eating "the bread of life" and living. He tells them that he is the bread of life, and that his flesh is this bread of life. So they understood all about bread, how it had to be eaten to get the nourishment, and he tells them they therefore have to "eat" him. Clearly he's talking in metaphors. But in verse 52 we see that the Jews didn't pick up on it and thought he was literally talking about his own physical flesh. Of course, they couldn't see it, since God caused them not to (Mk 4:12 and Mt 13:13).


Obviously knowing they weren't getting it, but still speaking in parables (Mt 13:13), he pushes the analogy and tells them that not only do they need to eat his flesh, but also drink his blood. But the key is that if they don't eat his flesh and drink his blood, it's not "eternal life" they miss out on, it's "eonian life". In other words, they won't enter the kingdom, the looked-forward-to kingdom on the earth with the messiah ruling.


So if they "partake" of Jesus, who is the "true food", he will raise them on the last day in order that they can enter the kingdom. So even though they die, they have that hope that they'll be raised to enter the kingdom. It's a faith thing. And it's also got nothing to do with so-called eternal life.


I Corinthians 10:16-18
16 Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ? 17 Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread. 18 Look at the nation Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices sharers in the altar? (NASB)

Interesting that early on in chapter 10, we have the same reference to Moses, the spiritual food, and the spiritual drink. Again, there's the "partaking" of food and drink. The passage is about the union of the "body of believers" with Christ. Verse 18 is an illustration, saying that the nation of Israel, although many individual people, is one nation, and if you're a part of the nation, then you're in union with the altar. You receive the benefits by partaking in the sacrifices at the altar. Similarly, individual believers are part of one body, and as such, receive the benefits of union with Christ by partaking not in actual sacrifices (since Christ's sacrifice did away for the need for any further sacrifice) but in some physical bread, which is a symbol of the body of Christ, given up for us. This is fleshed out (excuse the pun) in the next section.

1 Cor 11:23-28
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.
27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.

I'm not sure what exactly you're wanting comment on here, apart from the continuing reference to body and blood. Breaking the physical bread is a symbol of Jesus' body being broken and his blood poured out for us. When believers do this, they proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. Again, it's a union thing. It's saying "yep, I'm part of all this". It's a symbol that believers are in union with Jesus. Partaking in "communion" doesn't cause anyone to be in union. It's got nothing to do with works. It's just showing something that's already true (union with Christ).

Revelation 19:17-18
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of [g]commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”


Totally different context and nothing whatsoever to do with the previous passages. The book of Revelation is about how God gets the Jews to look upon the one they pierced, to see that Christ is indeed their messiah. Of course, they need lots of bad stuff to happen before they'll accept this. The book is all about, to and for Israel and has nothing to do with non-Jewish believers. Everything needs to be read in this context. The "bride" is Israel, not the church (which is the body of Christ). Bride and body are totally separate. Despite popular opinion, the "bride of Christ" doesn't exist. The "saints" in Revelation are Jewish saints.


So I think verses 17-18 are describing something which will literally take place: birds will come and eat the flesh (the literal bodies) of the dead, from the armies that assemble to fight against God. In verse 19 we see all the armies assembled and ready to fight. This fight never happens. In verse 20, the beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire (there's a whole separate discussion on that, but suffice to say the lake of fire is not, and cannot possibly be "hell". Happy to expand on that if desired.) But notice that "the rest" (verse 21) are not thrown into the lake of fire, they're killed. And what happens? The birds are "filled with their flesh". In other words, it confirms the literal reading of verses 17-18.
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12-02-2015, 09:34 PM #6
Lisa
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(12-02-2015, 08:26 PM)morilko Wrote:  Revelation 19:17-18
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of [g]commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”


Totally different context and nothing whatsoever to do with the previous passages. The book of Revelation is about how God gets the Jews to look upon the one they pierced, to see that Christ is indeed their messiah. Of course, they need lots of bad stuff to happen before they'll accept this. The book is all about, to and for Israel and has nothing to do with non-Jewish believers. Everything needs to be read in this context. The "bride" is Israel, not the church (which is the body of Christ). Bride and body are totally separate. Despite popular opinion, the "bride of Christ" doesn't exist. The "saints" in Revelation are Jewish saints.


So I think verses 17-18 are describing something which will literally take place: birds will come and eat the flesh (the literal bodies) of the dead, from the armies that assemble to fight against God. In verse 19 we see all the armies assembled and ready to fight. This fight never happens. In verse 20, the beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire (there's a whole separate discussion on that, but suffice to say the lake of fire is not, and cannot possibly be "hell". Happy to expand on that if desired.) But notice that "the rest" (verse 21) are not thrown into the lake of fire, they're killed. And what happens? The birds are "filled with their flesh". In other words, it confirms the literal reading of verses 17-18.


Why do you think that the book of revelation is only talking about the Jews?

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.  1John 4:1

Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 1 Peter 5:8

12-02-2015, 09:52 PM #7
morilko
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(12-02-2015, 09:34 PM)Lisa Wrote:  Why do you think that the book of revelation is only talking about the Jews?
1. The internal evidence. Revelation is largely an expansion of the prophecies of Daniel. It's talking about the coming of the man of lawlessness etc etc. Everything in Revelation is about the Jews and "the nations". There's no mention at all of the body of Christ, or of non-Jewish believers.

2. Because of my understanding (as in, my view) of "rightly dividing the Scripture". If you were to partition off and lift out Paul's letters, you'd have the old testament, then the gospels, then Acts. Then the letters written by the apostles to the Jews (eg. Peter, James, Jude etc) and Revelation. Viewed this way, you have one continuous set of scriptural writings about and for the Jews. (Yes, this means I'm saying the gospels are primarily for the Jews). Paul's letters stand in stark contrast to the other writings. Doing this means we can finally get some closure on obvious contradictions like Paul saying grace and faith have nothing to do with works, and James saying faith without works is dead (in other words, faith has everything to do with works).

3. I believe that Gentile believers (the body of Christ) will be "out of the picture" before the events in revelation take place.

Hope that helps.
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12-02-2015, 10:14 PM #8
Lisa
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(12-02-2015, 09:52 PM)morilko Wrote:  
(12-02-2015, 09:34 PM)Lisa Wrote:  Why do you think that the book of revelation is only talking about the Jews?
1. The internal evidence. Revelation is largely an expansion of the prophecies of Daniel. It's talking about the coming of the man of lawlessness etc etc. Everything in Revelation is about the Jews and "the nations". There's no mention at all of the body of Christ, or of non-Jewish believers.

2. Because of my understanding (as in, my view) of "rightly dividing the Scripture". If you were to partition off and lift out Paul's letters, you'd have the old testament, then the gospels, then Acts. Then the letters written by the apostles to the Jews (eg. Peter, James, Jude etc) and Revelation. Viewed this way, you have one continuous set of scriptural writings about and for the Jews. (Yes, this means I'm saying the gospels are primarily for the Jews). Paul's letters stand in stark contrast to the other writings. Doing this means we can finally get some closure on obvious contradictions like Paul saying grace and faith have nothing to do with works, and James saying faith without works is dead (in other words, faith has everything to do with works).

3. I believe that Gentile believers (the body of Christ) will be "out of the picture" before the events in revelation take place.

Hope that helps.

That does help me understand where you are coming from-yes.

Why will the gentile believers be out of the picture before the events in revelation?

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.  1John 4:1

Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 1 Peter 5:8

12-02-2015, 11:06 PM #9
morilko
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(12-02-2015, 10:14 PM)Lisa Wrote:  That does help me understand where you are coming from-yes.

Why will the gentile believers be out of the picture before the events in revelation?
Well, (and please excuse my longer than necessary answer), my take on things is that if you look at the book of Acts, it starts off totally and completely Jew Jew Jew. The apostles are Jews, the hearers are Jews and proselytes (Jewish converts from the nations), and everything has that focus. This goes right up till the death of Stephen, when we're introduced to "Saul". He is renamed Paul eventually and becomes an apostle. But he's a different apostle to the other apostles. We see this in a number of areas, most notably that in Acts 15 he goes up to Jerusalem to present "my gospel" to the other apostles. Now why would he need to do this if it was the same gospel/evangel as what they were already preaching? He was called to be the apostle to the "uncircumcised". Galatians chatper2 is key here, particularly verse 7.

"seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel [d]to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been [e]to the circumcised" (NASB)

See those [d] and [e] markings? They're footnotes which tell us that the literal translation is "of", not "to". But the translators didn't think this fit into their scheme so they made it "to". If they'd actually translated instead of interpreted, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in today. Anyway (rant over), the gospel which Peter preached to the Jews (the circumcision) is completely different to the gospel Paul preaches to the non-Jews (the uncircumcision).

From acts 8ish through Acts 15, the Jewish apostles (Peter, James etc) fade out, and Paul and Barnabus step up. Eventually, as Acts continues, the focus is on Paul's "missionary journeys". It's now transitioned to Paul's gospel of the grace of God (which remember is different to Peter's gospel). Guess what Paul's name means? "Pause". There's a pause in God's dealings with Israel. This is illustrated by Acts 13, where Paul and Barnabus encounter a Jewish magician, named Bar-Jesus, who was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus. Paul tells the magician that he will be blind and not see the sun for a time. He's a microcosm of Israel. And significantly, the proconsul, who is a Gentile, is named Paulus (pause). The whole thing is telling us that Israel is "put on hold". God has not abandoned Israel, he's just paused his dealings with them. At the end of Acts, in verse 28, we read "Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will also listen". God's dealings are now with the Gentiles. Romans 11 clearly explains all this as well.

Once all this is taken into account, we realise that there will come a time when God will resume his dealings with Israel.

Now, most people think that Revelation is the "end" chronologically, of God's dealings with mankind. But it's not. That happens in 1 Cor 15:28 "When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all." That's the culmination: God will be all in all. Until then, things aren't finished.

So, at some point in the future, God will finish his dealings with the Gentiles, and the body of Christ will be complete. At that point, Jesus will come to meet his body in the air (the dead will be raised first, etc). Then the body of Christ is "changed, in an instant" (1 Cor 15:52) and once more, God deals with Israel. This must happen since we're told that "all Israel will be saved" (Rom 11:26).

I think we see the Gentile believers (body of Christ) being taken in 1 Thess 4: 13-18, particularly verse 17, "and so we shall always be with the Lord". We're also told "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ". (1 Thess 5:9).

To summarise: God has a plan (mindblowing, I know!)

Eph 1: 9-11:
He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will

Note that the summing up of all things in Christ is just the same as God will be all in all.

That purpose/plan/will involves pulling a man out of the nations (Abraham), forming Israel from him, dealing with Israel, putting Israel aside, dealing with the Gentiles (forming the body of Christ), removing the body of Christ from the earth, resuming his dealings with Israel, and eventually becoming all in all (not all in some). This means that everything along the way is a means to an end, not the actual end. Romans 11:32 tells us that God has bound all to disobedience so that he may have mercy on all.

So, from all that, "
a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in" and after that, God removes the body of Christ.
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12-03-2015, 08:32 AM #10
Lisa
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(12-02-2015, 11:06 PM)morilko Wrote:  
(12-02-2015, 10:14 PM)Lisa Wrote:  That does help me understand where you are coming from-yes.

Why will the gentile believers be out of the picture before the events in revelation?
Well, (and please excuse my longer than necessary answer), my take on things is that if you look at the book of Acts, it starts off totally and completely Jew Jew Jew. The apostles are Jews, the hearers are Jews and proselytes (Jewish converts from the nations), and everything has that focus. This goes right up till the death of Stephen, when we're introduced to "Saul". He is renamed Paul eventually and becomes an apostle. But he's a different apostle to the other apostles. We see this in a number of areas, most notably that in Acts 15 he goes up to Jerusalem to present "my gospel" to the other apostles. Now why would he need to do this if it was the same gospel/evangel as what they were already preaching? He was called to be the apostle to the "uncircumcised". Galatians chatper2 is key here, particularly verse 7.

"seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel [d]to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been [e]to the circumcised" (NASB)

See those [d] and [e] markings? They're footnotes which tell us that the literal translation is "of", not "to". But the translators didn't think this fit into their scheme so they made it "to". If they'd actually translated instead of interpreted, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in today. Anyway (rant over), the gospel which Peter preached to the Jews (the circumcision) is completely different to the gospel Paul preaches to the non-Jews (the uncircumcision).

From acts 8ish through Acts 15, the Jewish apostles (Peter, James etc) fade out, and Paul and Barnabus step up. Eventually, as Acts continues, the focus is on Paul's "missionary journeys". It's now transitioned to Paul's gospel of the grace of God (which remember is different to Peter's gospel). Guess what Paul's name means? "Pause". There's a pause in God's dealings with Israel. This is illustrated by Acts 13, where Paul and Barnabus encounter a Jewish magician, named Bar-Jesus, who was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus. Paul tells the magician that he will be blind and not see the sun for a time. He's a microcosm of Israel. And significantly, the proconsul, who is a Gentile, is named Paulus (pause). The whole thing is telling us that Israel is "put on hold". God has not abandoned Israel, he's just paused his dealings with them. At the end of Acts, in verse 28, we read "Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will also listen". God's dealings are now with the Gentiles. Romans 11 clearly explains all this as well.

Once all this is taken into account, we realise that there will come a time when God will resume his dealings with Israel.

Now, most people think that Revelation is the "end" chronologically, of God's dealings with mankind. But it's not. That happens in 1 Cor 15:28 "When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all." That's the culmination: God will be all in all. Until then, things aren't finished.

So, at some point in the future, God will finish his dealings with the Gentiles, and the body of Christ will be complete. At that point, Jesus will come to meet his body in the air (the dead will be raised first, etc). Then the body of Christ is "changed, in an instant" (1 Cor 15:52) and once more, God deals with Israel. This must happen since we're told that "all Israel will be saved" (Rom 11:26).

I think we see the Gentile believers (body of Christ) being taken in 1 Thess 4: 13-18, particularly verse 17, "and so we shall always be with the Lord". We're also told "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ". (1 Thess 5:9).

To summarise: God has a plan (mindblowing, I know!)

Eph 1: 9-11:
He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will

Note that the summing up of all things in Christ is just the same as God will be all in all.

That purpose/plan/will involves pulling a man out of the nations (Abraham), forming Israel from him, dealing with Israel, putting Israel aside, dealing with the Gentiles (forming the body of Christ), removing the body of Christ from the earth, resuming his dealings with Israel, and eventually becoming all in all (not all in some). This means that everything along the way is a means to an end, not the actual end. Romans 11:32 tells us that God has bound all to disobedience so that he may have mercy on all.

So, from all that, "
a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in" and after that, God removes the body of Christ.


That's interesting. So then it's the Jews who fall away from the faith, then the man of lawlessness is revealed? But how could that be when all Jews are saved? Do they even have a faith to fall away from? The Christians won't be here so it can't be them, they won't have any reason to fall away will they? They don't go through tribulation according to you, they just wait to be taken by Jesus-no reason to fall away then. Maybe you can shed some light on that then?

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.  1John 4:1

Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 1 Peter 5:8