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Dear Catholics: No salvation outside the Catholic church?


06-05-2015, 02:48 AM #1
Thunderian
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I read on an unrelated thread that Catholics believe there is no salvation outside the Catholic church.

Is that true, and what scripture is it based on?

06-05-2015, 08:49 AM #2
RiderOfKarma
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(06-05-2015, 02:48 AM)Thunderian Wrote:  I read on an unrelated thread that Catholics believe there is no salvation outside the Catholic church.

Is that true, and what scripture is it based on?

Ignore that douche the same way you would anyone of any religion spewing that nonsense. ^___~

06-05-2015, 10:24 AM #3
Loyal To The Crown
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@Thunderian

The Catholic Church does teach that there is no salvation outside the Church. This is a Catholic Dogma that was defined many times.


“... the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ... Nor is there salvation in any other.  For there is no other name, under heaven, given to men, whereby we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12). 
 
     There is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ, and the Catholic Church is His Mystical Body.  Since there is no entering into the Catholic Church of Christ without the Sacrament of Baptism, this means that only baptized Catholics who die in the state of grace (and those who become baptized Catholics and die in the state of grace) can hope to be saved – period.
 
“If anyone abideth not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and he burneth.” (St.John 15:6)

Here are the quotes from the Church:

Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, Ex Cathedra: "There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice."


Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, Ex Cathedra:
“Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.”

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, Ex Cathedra:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

There is no salvation outside of Christ (Acts 4:12), and you cannot belong to Christ if you reject parts of His revelation and/or don't adhere to His Church (St.Matthew. 28:20; St.Matthew. 18:17). That means you cannot belong to Christ if you reject the Papacy (St.Matthew.16:18-19) or the Eucharist (St.John 6:53) or Confession (St.John 20:23) or that justification is not by faith alone (St.James 2:24), etc. Non-Catholics who claim to follow Christ actually reject His teaching in many areas. They are thus not of Christ. 

This is a must see documentary for anyone interested in the true Teaching of the Gospel:




06-05-2015, 11:41 PM #4
Todd
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(06-05-2015, 10:24 AM)Loyal To The Crown Wrote:  There is no salvation outside of Christ (Acts 4:12), and you cannot belong to Christ if you reject parts of His revelation and/or don't adhere to His Church (St.Matthew. 28:20; St.Matthew. 18:17). That means you cannot belong to Christ if you reject the Papacy (St.Matthew.16:18-19) or the Eucharist (St.John 6:53) or Confession (St.John 20:23) or that justification is not by faith alone (St.James 2:24), etc. Non-Catholics who claim to follow Christ actually reject His teaching in many areas. They are thus not of Christ. 


How does Matthew 16:18-19 provide any basis to accept the Papacy?  The "Rock" Jesus was speaking about was the Revelation Peter had that Jesus was indeed the messiah, the son of God.  Jesus wasn't saying he would build his church on a person...

Even if you could accept the notion Jesus was going to build his church on a person,  the whole idea that Peter was the first Pope is weak.  There is no evidence in the Bible or from 1st century Christian writers that Peter ever set foot in Rome.  If anyone at all should be credited with starting a congregation of true believers in Rome it would be Paul.  There is actually historical evidence to put a case together that Simon the sorcer from Samaria that was rebuked by Peter in Acts 8:9-24 was the leader of a first century "church" in Rome that eventually became the Roman Catholic Church.

The Catholic church is not the only Christian denomination that takes communion or believes in confession, so those scriptures are weak proof that the Catholic Church is the only true Church.

Jesus continually taught his disciples that the kingdom of God was a spiritual kingdom and that it could not be seen in the natural.  Biblically the "Church" was never supposed to be an institution with hierachy and political power.  That is the same concept that the Jews were looking for that blinded most of them from seeing and accepting the Messiah that was sent to them.    

I've read many convincing Bible studies that try to prove the Catholic Church is really the whore of Babylon, that the Spirit of God calls for his people to come out of.  I don't really agree with that, because I believe that the call to come out of Babylon is a call for the true Body of Christ to come out of ANY instituional system that restricts the true freedom and joy of the Gospel.  Jesus said the Truth would set us free.  All I see in institutionalized Christianity (Catholic or Protestant) is chains of oppression and Political/Spiritual abuse of Authority, and "spiritual elites" lording over people who are hungry for God (1 Peter 5:3)(Luke 22:24-26). 

The veil in the temple was torn in two when Christ died on the cross, showing that the holy of holies was now open to all men.  Then the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD representing the final destruction of the priestly system.  We no longer need human priests to advocate for us....we have a single great high priest in Jesus Christ.  Through Christ alone I can enter into the Holy presence of God.  God has made every believer a royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9)
 
The true Church of God cannot be defined in natural terms or seen with the natural eye....it is a spiritual thing.  I believe there are true Christian believers in just about every Christian denomination...but eventually the Spirit of God WILL call the true Church, the body of Christ, to come out of Spirtiual Babylon.

Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;

And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did to one of these my brethren -- the least -- to me ye did

06-06-2015, 02:42 AM #5
Undertaker
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(06-05-2015, 02:48 AM)Thunderian Wrote:  I read on an unrelated thread that Catholics believe there is no salvation outside the Catholic church.

Is that true, and what scripture is it based on?

Your concept of salvation isn't based on any scripture as well. There is only a trial and the original sin is one of the charges that may be pressed. Only a priest that has been subjected to a valid rite of ordination can perform a valid baptism. That's not to say anything of the sacrament of penance.

"Apostolic succession is the line of bishops stretching back to the apostles. All over the world, all Catholic bishops are part of a lineage that goes back to the time of the apostles, something that is impossible in Protestant denominations (most of which do not even claim to have bishops). 

The role of apostolic succession in preserving true doctrine is illustrated in the Bible. To make sure that the apostles’ teachings would be passed down after the deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy, "[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2). In this passage he refers to the first three generations of apostolic succession—his own generation, Timothy’s generation, and the generation Timothy will teach. 

The Church Fathers, who were links in that chain of succession, regularly appealed to apostolic succession as a test for whether Catholics or heretics had correct doctrine. This was necessary because heretics simply put their own interpretations, even bizarre ones, on Scripture. Clearly, something other than Scripture had to be used as an ultimate test of doctrine in these cases. 
Thus the early Church historian J. N. D. Kelly, a Protestant, writes, "[W]here in practice was [the] apostolic testimony or tradition to be found? . . . The most obvious answer was that the apostles had committed it orally to the Church, where it had been handed down from generation to generation. . . . Unlike the alleged secret tradition of the Gnostics, it was entirely public and open, having been entrusted by the apostles to their successors, and by these in turn to those who followed them, and was visible in the Church for all who cared to look for it" (Early Christian Doctrines, 37). 
For the early Fathers, "the identity of the oral tradition with the original revelation is guaranteed by the unbroken succession of bishops in the great sees going back lineally to the apostles. . . . [A]n additional safeguard is supplied by the Holy Spirit, for the message committed was to the Church, and the Church is the home of the Spirit. Indeed, the Church’s bishops are . . . Spirit-endowed men who have been vouchsafed ‘an infallible charism of truth’" (ibid.). 
Thus on the basis of experience the Fathers could be "profoundly convinced of the futility of arguing with heretics merely on the basis of Scripture. The skill and success with which they twisted its plain meaning made it impossible to reach any decisive conclusion in that field" (ibid., 41).  [...] "

http://www.catholic.com//tracts/apostolic-succession

06-06-2015, 10:07 AM #6
Loyal To The Crown
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@Todd

David Hill, Presbyterian minister and Senior Lecturers of Biblical Studies, University of Sheffield writes: 

"It is on Peter himself, the confessor of his Messiahship, that Jesus will build the Church.. . . Attempts to interpret the ‘rock' as something other than Peter in person (e.g. his faith,the truth revealed to him) are due to Protestant bias, and introduce to the statement adegree of subtlety which is highly unlikely." (The Gospel of Matthew [Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans; 1972], 261

St.Matthew 16:18: "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church;and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it."The rock (Greek, petra) referred to here is St. Peter himself, not his faith or Jesus Christ.Christ appears here not as the foundation, but as the architect who "builds." The Church is built, not on confessions, but on confessors - living men (see, e.g., 1 Peter 2:5). Today,the overwhelming consensus of the great majority of all biblical scholars and commentators is in favor of the traditional Catholic understanding. Here St. Peter is spoken of as the foundation-stone of the Church, making him head and superior of the family of God (i.e., the seed of the doctrine of the papacy). Without a solid foundation a house falls. St.Peter is the foundation, but not founder of the Church.

you honestly need to research Church history, its a historical and undeniable fact St.Peter was and died in Rome.

Here are some quotes from the Church Fathers:

"I do not, as Peter and Paul, issue commandments unto you." St.Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans, 4 (c. A.D. 110).

"Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church." St.Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:1:1 (c. A.D. 180).

"[W]hich Peter and Paul preached at Rome..." Lactantius, The Divine Institutes, 4:21 (A.D. 310).

"This man [Simon Magus], after he had been cast out by the Apostles, came to Rome...Peter and Paul, a noble pair, chief rulers of the Church, arrived and set the error right...For Peter was there, who carrieth the keys of heaven..." St.Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures ,6:14-15 (c. A.D. 350).

Much more can be quoted

you said:

"I've read many convincing Bible studies that try to prove the Catholic Church is really the whore of Babylon..."

like Jack Chick?

If this is the case, where's the Antichrist, according to you? You cannot separate the deception of the Whore of Babylon from the deception of the Antichrist, according to the Apocalypse.  So where's the Antichrist?





you said "Through Christ alone"

Faith alone is a doctrine of demons, have you ever read the New Testament???

Here is a short 5 min video destroying "once saved always saved"





St.James 2:24- “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”

NOT ALL WHO SAY “LORD, LORD” ENTER HEAVEN, BUT HE THAT DOES THE WILL OF GOD
 
St.Matthew 7:21-23- “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
 
Here we see that he who “doeth” the will of God will enter Heaven, not all who consider Jesus to be the Lord.  Then Jesus emphasizes the point by stating that you must do what He says to be His.
 
St.Matthew 7:24-27- “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock… And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
 
How clear does it have to be?  It’s a matter of whether you hear His words and do them.  It’s not by faith alone

vaticancatholic.com

06-06-2015, 10:48 AM #7
Todd
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I never denied that faith should produce obedience and works.  But you are demanding I need to have obedience to a man and an earthly institution.  I strive to be obedient to what Scripture plainly and clearly teaches.  You can not prove Biblically that the Roman Catholic Church is the only "True" Church.  You have to use the traditions of men to prove Catholicism.  

Mark 7:13 "And so you cancel the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition. And this is only one example among many others."

As far as the Anti-Christ question goes, you make the false assumption that the Anti-Christ is some singular person that arrives near the end of the world.  Anti-Christ is a spirit and scripture tells us that Anti-Christ was already present in the time of the New Testament writers.  

A more appropriate understanding of the Greek word translatead as "Anti-Christ" is false or "subsitute Christ rather than the notion of someone who openly stands against Christ.  The Pope's title of Vicar Christ carries the implication of the Pope taking the place of Christ on the Earth....hence the Papacy will do just fine, if you demand the presence of an Anti-Christ for Mystery Bablylon to exist.  Their is no biblical basis for the concept of a single  man taking the place of Christ on Earth.  We are all members of his Body, with Christ himself being the head.

It is not my intention to offend Catholics.  I know many Catholics are sincere followers of Christ.  But there are sincere folowers of Christ in almost all demoninations.  It doesn't mean all their doctrines and beliefs are correct though.  The Holy Spirit is continually opening my eyes to scripture that shows many of the beliefs and doctrines I held were not Biblical.  There is no single denomination or congregation that has it all right and can state they are the only true Church of Christ.  Again the true Church of Christ is spiritual, it is not a man based institution.

Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;

And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did to one of these my brethren -- the least -- to me ye did

06-06-2015, 11:43 AM #8
Undertaker
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(06-06-2015, 10:48 AM)Todd Wrote:  

As far as the Anti-Christ question goes, you make the false assumption that the Anti-Christ is some singular person that arrives near the end of the world.  Anti-Christ is a spirit and scripture tells us that Anti-Christ was already present in the time of the New Testament writers.  

A more appropriate understanding of the Greek word translatead as "Anti-Christ" is false or "subsitute Christ rather than the notion of someone who openly stands against Christ.  The Pope's title of Vicar Christ carries the implication of the Pope taking the place of Christ on the Earth....hence the Papacy will do just fine, if you demand the presence of an Anti-Christ for Mystery Bablylon to exist.

Your hypothesis is fallacious as it implies Christ's sacrifice on the Cross was in vain and God isn't infallible. You're insinuating that Christianity has perished and the world was left to the Antichrist's devices for 1500 years. Makes you wonder why they wouldn't have started to gradually drop the facade after a century if there were no Christians left to contest it.

Protestantism never had any intentions to restore apocryphal New Testament literature, in fact "Luther made an attempt to remove the books of Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation from the canon (notably, he perceived them to go against certain Protestant doctrines such as sola gratia and sola fide), but this was not generally accepted among his followers. However, these books are ordered last in the German-language Luther Bible to this day." Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther%27s_...Revelation

06-06-2015, 12:11 PM #9
Todd
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(06-06-2015, 11:43 AM)Undertaker Wrote:  
(06-06-2015, 10:48 AM)Todd Wrote:  

As far as the Anti-Christ question goes, you make the false assumption that the Anti-Christ is some singular person that arrives near the end of the world.  Anti-Christ is a spirit and scripture tells us that Anti-Christ was already present in the time of the New Testament writers.  

A more appropriate understanding of the Greek word translatead as "Anti-Christ" is false or "subsitute Christ rather than the notion of someone who openly stands against Christ.  The Pope's title of Vicar Christ carries the implication of the Pope taking the place of Christ on the Earth....hence the Papacy will do just fine, if you demand the presence of an Anti-Christ for Mystery Bablylon to exist.

Your hypothesis is fallacious as it implies Christ's sacrifice on the Cross was in vain and God isn't infallible. You're insinuating that Christianity has perished and the world was left to the Antichrist's devices for 1500 years. Makes you wonder why they wouldn't have started to gradually drop the facade after a century if there were no Christians left to contest it.

What? How does my hypothesis imply Christ's sacrifice on the Cross was in vain?  I'm not insinuating that Christianity perished.  Christ said his Kingdom was a spiritual kingdom, not a political or earthly kingdom.  The Catholic and every other institutionalized "church" is political and earthly.  

I suppose my fundamental definition of Christianity is so different from yours...we are not likely to ever resolve this.  Fortunately we are living in a temporal age and we all see in a mirror dimly.  However in the ages to come we shall all see him face to face and understand completely.  Praise God!  It's all good!

Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;

And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did to one of these my brethren -- the least -- to me ye did

06-06-2015, 12:37 PM #10
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You're missing the connotation to such an extent that you demonstrate why individual scripture study doesn't suffice, because an ordinary reader can't see the forest for the trees. That merely implied Jesus had no political aspirations (such as challenging the Roman rule) as His Kingdom is located in the spiritual plane of existence. Before they may be granted entrance in the afterlife Christians have to achieve their works in the material realm.