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Is it moral for God to punish us?


10-13-2015, 06:58 PM #1
Gnostic Bishop
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Is it moral for God to punish us?

 

Is it moral for an all-knowing and all-powerful God to set in motion a history that he designs and then condemns others for?

 

We live in a history that God has set up and is fully responsible for. God, punishing man, who can do nothing but follow God’s plan and the nature God has put in us, is having innocent people suffer for the wrongs God himself has pre-destined and which cannot be altered.

 

For example.

God chose to have Jesus sacrificed. God, in his planning book would also have decided who would kill Jesus. There would be no way for that man to not kill Jesus or God’s plan would fall off the rails and in this case, we would not have a messiah or scapegoat to ride into heaven.

 

Some will say we have free will but as shown in the example above, Jesus’ killer could not refrain from killing Jesus without derailing God’s plan. Further, to pre-destine any one action or condition within a history changes all other conditions and pre-destines all conditions within the plan. Think the butterfly effect.

 

Having said the above and having shown that we have no free will if anything is pre-destined, I think it would be quite immoral for God to judge or punish us for being and doing exactly what he pre-ordained for us in his plan. We have no choice and to punish us is immoral.

 

Do you agree?

 

If not, why not?

 

Regards

DL

10-13-2015, 07:08 PM #2
Scimitar
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I'm pretty sure we used to butt heads previously - let's start again, this time, without the head butts hopefully Smile

(nice to read you on TZ btw, had no idea you was there also)

Is it wrong for God to punish humans? Not if the humans can learn from their own punishments... we make mistakes don't we? and so - we pay the price - I believe that having "free will" is something which takes mankind out of the protective grace of God to an extent, as the human being harms himself, through his own actions - can God be blamed? God is there picking up the pieces to our messy lives, reordering them back for us, through things like "destiny" and "fate"... I would say HE is Kind, and Just, and Loves us dearly.

...If man makes laws, and makind holds each other to court - then who is punishing who? Again, factor in Free Will, and things become a bit of a juggle.

Is it moral for God to punish us? If you mean, on the day of judgement - then yes - if we are guilty. The adherents from the Abrahamic traditions all believe that no man enters heaven through his deeds alone - it is only the Mercy of God which remains as the crucial factor in ones acceptance into heaven - and so we invoke that attribute in God, in the hope that HE is merciful to us. We are, after all, human beings failing at being human.

*clink - two dinars

Scimi
This post was last modified: 10-13-2015, 07:08 PM by Scimitar.

Out beyond ideas
of wrong-doing,


and right-doing,

there is a field...

...I'll meet you there.
€



Jalaluddin Rumi
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10-13-2015, 10:56 PM #3
Vytas
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Is it moral for a father to punish his children?

God is not responsible for anything, earth and everything in it was given to us by God to rule and use it. We have our free will to do as we please, and to live as we please, to blame God when we fail something is stupid. Person who always search someone to blame is worth only pity...
It seems you really don't know or don't understand concept of Christ sacrifice. It all started with Adam and Eve as they were also responsible for they actions just as we are today. They failed miserably just as we do, and God in his righteousness should condemn us. He is just, so He has to do it. But we got lucky as Jesus paid the price for our sins and took punishment upon Himself to set us free.
Well its a Christians perspective anyway...

Truth is precious it's guarded by God

10-14-2015, 08:02 AM #4
Todd
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It's moral if God's punishment is for the purpose of correction, rehabilitation  and reconciliation.  Unfortunately this is what usually get's lost in the discussion.  Too many people have a black and white perception of the afterlife as being binary.... eternal reward or eternal punishment and never even contemplate that God's plan of redemption spans more than this age/lifetime.

Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;

And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did to one of these my brethren -- the least -- to me ye did
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10-14-2015, 11:42 AM #5
Lisa
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(10-13-2015, 06:58 PM)Gnostic Bishop Wrote:  Is it moral for God to punish us?

Yes! 
 

Is it moral for an all-knowing and all-powerful God to set in motion a history that he designs and then condemns others for?

What history did he set in motion?

 

We live in a history that God has set up and is fully responsible for. God, punishing man, who can do nothing but follow God’s plan and the nature God has put in us, is having innocent people suffer for the wrongs God himself has pre-destined and which cannot be altered.


God gave us the choice to obey or not and the disobedience came with a consequence. God didn't put the sun nature in is he gave us free will to choose obedience or disobedience. It was the disobedient choice that gave us all what we've got now. 

We are not innocent people we are all sinners. 
 

For example.

God chose to have Jesus sacrificed. God, in his planning book would also have decided who would kill Jesus. There would be no way for that man to not kill Jesus or God’s plan would fall off the rails and in this case, we would not have a messiah or scapegoat to ride into heaven.


God chose to reconcile all of us by Jesus' sacrifice. Jesus went along with God's plan. He could have called in legions of angels to save Himself but He didn't because God's plan was good.

As for the people who wanted Jesus killed-they made their own choices there too. What did Jesus really do to get Himself killed? 
 

Some will say we have free will but as shown in the example above, Jesus’ killer could not refrain from killing Jesus without derailing God’s plan. Further, to pre-destine any one action or condition within a history changes all other conditions and pre-destines all conditions within the plan. Think the butterfly effect.



 

Having said the above and having shown that we have no free will if anything is pre-destined, I think it would be quite immoral for God to judge or punish us for being and doing exactly what he pre-ordained for us in his plan. We have no choice and to punish us is immoral.

 

Do you agree?
No
 

If not, why not?

 It was not God's plan that we should sin but to live in obedience to Him. But He does have a plan to reconcile us with Him which is actually pretty nice for us since if He was so immoral and cruel He could just punish us all-end of story. 

Regards

DL

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.  1John 4:1

Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 1 Peter 5:8

10-14-2015, 11:57 AM #6
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(10-13-2015, 07:08 PM)Scimitar Wrote:  
Quote:I'm pretty sure we used to butt heads previously - let's start again, this time, without the head butts hopefully Smile

(nice to read you on TZ btw, had no idea you was there also)

Thanks, and the head butting is in your court more than mine. As a Gnostic Christian and esoteric ecumenist, I am at the mercy of those I speak with as far as how things will go. A fresh start is always good though.

Quote:Is it wrong for God to punish humans? Not if the humans can learn from their own punishments...

That was sort of reversed I think so will ignore it. I hope you agree that it does not quite make sense because if you have learned from your own punishment, you have nothing to learn from further punishment from God.

Quote:we make mistakes don't we? and so - we pay the price -

In our natural world, absolutely. And since we do, God has no cause to add a payment after we die.

One payment per offence is all that is required.

Quote:I believe that having "free will" is something which takes mankind out of the protective grace of God to an extent, as the human being harms himself, through his own actions - can God be blamed?

Yes because as stated, he sets all the conditions.

Quote:God is there picking up the pieces to our messy lives, reordering them back for us, through things like "destiny" and "fate"... I would say HE is Kind, and Just, and Loves us dearly.

I think he is more of a prick but let's ignore this as well because you have absolutely nothing to show that proves your statements to be true.

I will speak to your ideas that we have free will.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.

Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."


Quote:...If man makes laws, and makind holds each other to court - then who is punishing who? Again, factor in Free Will, and things become a bit of a juggle.

See above. We are not talking of man.

Quote:Is it moral for God to punish us? If you mean, on the day of judgement - then yes - if we are guilty.

We cannot help but be guilty as God created us so that we can never be innocent. Our normal state to God is guilty as created and born to be. That is why it is unjust for God to punish us.



Quote:The adherents from the Abrahamic traditions all believe that no man enters heaven through his deeds alone - it is only the Mercy of God which remains as the crucial factor in ones acceptance into heaven - and so we invoke that attribute in God, in the hope that HE is merciful to us. We are, after all, human beings failing at being human.

*clink - two dinars

Scimi

I disagree with this last due to what the scriptures tell us.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Note how all you have to do is repent. God needs not do anything at all.

Note also how God seems to be a Universalist and does not need a hell as he does not want to lose any of us and what God wants, he always gets.

Regards
DL

10-14-2015, 12:05 PM #7
Scimitar
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Sorry bro, but you forgot about the idea that it is God's mercy which envelopes humanity - and so it is by the mercy alone that anyone will enter heaven. Good deeds - one can do for a hundred lifetimes - it still does not equate to the gift of one eye - and God has given us more than just one eye.

Psalm 136:23-26

He remembered us in our low estate His love endures forever. and freed us from our enemies. His love endures forever. He gives food to every creature. His love endures forever.Give thanks to the God of heaven. His love endures forever.

136:23-26 God's everlasting mercy is here praised for the redemption of his church; in all his glories, and all his gifts. Blessed be God, May we know and feel his redeeming power, that we may serve him in righteousness all our days. May He who giveth food to all flesh, feed our souls unto eternal life, and enliven our affections by his grace, that we may give thanks and praise to his holy name, for his mercy endureth for ever. Let us trace up all the favours we receive to this true source, and offer praise continually.

Scimi
This post was last modified: 10-14-2015, 12:06 PM by Scimitar.

Out beyond ideas
of wrong-doing,


and right-doing,

there is a field...

...I'll meet you there.
€



Jalaluddin Rumi
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10-14-2015, 12:11 PM #8
Gnostic Bishop
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[quote='Vytas' pid='27853' dateline='1444791360']

[quote]Is it moral for a father to punish his children?[/quote]

Not as in this case, where all conditions are set up by that father.
[quote]

God is not responsible for anything, earth and everything in it was given to us by God to rule and use it.[/quote]

So a creator has no responsibility for what he creates, be it good or otherwise. Interesting. 

Do you have a job and are you not responsible for what you create?

Why is it that you have to and should take responsibility yet you absolve God of any?

[quote]

We have our free will to do as we please, and to live as we please, to blame God when we fail something is stupid. Person who always search someone to blame is worth only pity...[/quote]

Let me repeat this for you.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.

Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

[quote]

It seems you really don't know or don't understand concept of Christ sacrifice. It all started with Adam and Eve as they were also responsible for they actions just as we are today. They failed miserably just as we do,[/quote]

They failed because God put Satan right there with Eve. This you cannot deny.

Your remark aside.

Eve was correct in eating of the tree of knowledge and rejecting God.

It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

This indicates that Jesus had no choice.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

This then begs the question.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Only an insane and immoral God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women. They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.

[quote]

and God in his righteousness should condemn us. He is just, so He has to do it.[/quote]

Just?

See above where his first judgement was to demand a bribe or sacrifice to corrupt his usual justice of punishing the guilty to the immoral position of accepting the punishment of the innocent. If that corruption is justice to you. you will never make a judge as you have no clue as to what just means.

[quote]
But we got lucky as Jesus paid the price for our sins and took punishment upon Himself to set us free.
Well its a Christians perspective anyway...[/quote]

It is and completely ignores scriptures that say that that is quite immoral.


Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

 

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

 

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

 

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]
Regards
DL

10-14-2015, 12:19 PM #9
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(10-14-2015, 08:02 AM)Todd Wrote:  It's moral if God's punishment is for the purpose of correction, rehabilitation  and reconciliation.  Unfortunately this is what usually get's lost in the discussion.  Too many people have a black and white perception of the afterlife as being binary.... eternal reward or eternal punishment and never even contemplate that God's plan of redemption spans more than this age/lifetime.

Reincarnation is not a Christian dogma but many Christians make up their own theology.

Can I take it then that you do not believe in a hell concept?

Regards
DL

10-14-2015, 12:24 PM #10
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(10-14-2015, 11:42 AM)Lisa Wrote:  
(10-13-2015, 06:58 PM)Gnostic Bishop Wrote:  Is it moral for God to punish us?

Yes! 
 

Is it moral for an all-knowing and all-powerful God to set in motion a history that he designs and then condemns others for?

What history did he set in motion?

 

We live in a history that God has set up and is fully responsible for. God, punishing man, who can do nothing but follow God’s plan and the nature God has put in us, is having innocent people suffer for the wrongs God himself has pre-destined and which cannot be altered.


God gave us the choice to obey or not and the disobedience came with a consequence. God didn't put the sun nature in is he gave us free will to choose obedience or disobedience. It was the disobedient choice that gave us all what we've got now. 

We are not innocent people we are all sinners. 
 

For example.

God chose to have Jesus sacrificed. God, in his planning book would also have decided who would kill Jesus. There would be no way for that man to not kill Jesus or God’s plan would fall off the rails and in this case, we would not have a messiah or scapegoat to ride into heaven.


God chose to reconcile all of us by Jesus' sacrifice. Jesus went along with God's plan. He could have called in legions of angels to save Himself but He didn't because God's plan was good.

As for the people who wanted Jesus killed-they made their own choices there too. What did Jesus really do to get Himself killed? 
 

Some will say we have free will but as shown in the example above, Jesus’ killer could not refrain from killing Jesus without derailing God’s plan. Further, to pre-destine any one action or condition within a history changes all other conditions and pre-destines all conditions within the plan. Think the butterfly effect.



 

Having said the above and having shown that we have no free will if anything is pre-destined, I think it would be quite immoral for God to judge or punish us for being and doing exactly what he pre-ordained for us in his plan. We have no choice and to punish us is immoral.

 

Do you agree?
No
 

If not, why not?

 It was not God's plan that we should sin but to live in obedience to Him. But He does have a plan to reconcile us with Him which is actually pretty nice for us since if He was so immoral and cruel He could just punish us all-end of story. 

Regards

DL

I spoke to most of what you put above. Please have a look.

If you do not get that your reliance and use of Jesus is immoral from what I put above then do you care to argue that the punishment of the innocent instead of the guilty is somehow moral.

--------

Human sacrifice is evil and your God demanding one and accepting one is evil.

You trying to profit from that evil is evil. Do just a bit of thinking and you will agree.
 
Imagine you have two children. One of your children does something wrong – say it curses, or throws a temper tantrum, or something like that. In fact, say it does this on a regular basis, and you continually forgive your child, but it never seems to change.
 
Now suppose one day you’ve had enough, you need to do something different. You still wish to forgive your child, but nothing has worked. Do you go to your second child, your good child, and punish it to atone for the sins of the first?
 
In fact, if you ever saw a parent on the street punish one of their children for the actions of their other child, how would you react? Would you support their decision, or would you be offended? Because God punished Jesus -- his good child -- for the sins of his other children.
 
Interestingly, some historical royal families would beat their slaves when their own children did wrong – you should not, after all, ever beat a prince. The question is: what kind of lesson does that teach the child who actually did the harm? Does it teach them to be a better person, to stop doing harm, or does it teach them both that they won't themselves be punished, and also that punishing other people is normal? I know that's not a lesson I would want to teach my children, and I suspect it's not a lesson most Christians would want to teach theirs. So why does God?
 
For me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant – of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc.
 
Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.
 
Do you agree?
If not, please show how it is morally and legally good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty, bearing in mind that all legal systems think that punishing the guilty is what is justice.
 
Regards
DL
This post was last modified: 10-14-2015, 12:26 PM by Gnostic Bishop.