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Why does it matter what we believe? Are Good Intentions Enough?


09-18-2015, 05:59 PM #1
sPEktrall
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Why does it matter what we believe?  Are Good Intentions Enough?

The following is taken from another thread:

... from a Biblical framework ones good intentions will be irrelevant on the day of judgment. If one reads the Bible like they do any other account then they are  forced to make a conscious decision as to whether or not what they are reading is true.  There is no other way around it considering the magnitude and exclusivity of Jesus statement's.  If we don't approach the Bible with this mindset and disregard whats said therin then it could even be derived from a logical perspective(by the choices we are left with given through the Bible) that we risk losing it all , this is after becoming knowledgeable of this worldview's reality.  These statements pertain to everyone.  Let me break down....

Jesus said he is the only way to the father.  Jesus said that unless you believe in his testimony and work at the cross  that you shall die in your sin.  Jesus said that whoever doesn't believe in him shall not see life.  The Bible says there is no other name given among men where by we must be saved.  The Bible says there is one mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus Christ.  The Bible says those who don't possess a saving faith and saving relationship with Christ are without hope(eternally).

These statements are either true or false, and despite good intentions they still remain either one of two things - true or false.  The Biblical framework is clear that good intentions aren't enough.  A man has to be more than well intended before God, he has to be right.  If what the Bible says is true, then man MUST be right.  There is no room for error even if its derived from good intentions.  The gospel summons every living creature whether we like to realize it or not.  It summons everyone to make a choice, because the content therein is relevant to every living person whether they like to admit it or not.  They can ignore it, they can choose not to believe it,  they can say religion is not for them, they can say it has no bearing on their life, they can say this or that, but at the end of the day what the Bible says is either true, or false.  The Bible makes statements pertaining to the eternal destination of everyone, therefore everyone must deal with the cross their own way.  Logically, there is no escape?  How could there be with statements that call into account ever soul?  Jesus statements are either true, or false, but within the context of the Bible we have to take into account Gods word when he says the scripture cannot be broken, he cannot lie.  Think of it like this...      If I break a law in a certain country and didn't know it was a law will that matter to the authorities?  Claiming ignorance wont be sufficient on the day of judgment.

With that said....

The gospel summons everyone with this information and it must be dealt with.  This is why it matters what people believe.

Prov 15:7 The lips of the wise disperse knowledge: but the heart of the foolish doeth not so.
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09-18-2015, 06:12 PM #2
The Creeper
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The title of this thread has the potential to be a good thread, I look forward to hearing everyones views and perhaps we could all learn something.

I did respond to this post in the thread you originally posted this post in brother. We can carry it on here on in that thread.

I do like the idea of the question posed by this thread, it is an important thing to ponder, but ultimately what one chooses to believe is a personal choice. It always has been, it always will be.

A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool – William Shakespear
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09-18-2015, 06:31 PM #3
Robert Baird
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Because the Gospels were written after the death of all apostles (Luke may have been alive but feeble) and because the scholars in Judaism and elsewhere make it clear Rome is the author and Rome became the beneficiary - I will disregard the lies put in the mouth of the mythical Jesus (a title which every generation of Merovingians had a person who was adept enough to earn it, would appear likely).

Because Pauline Christianity took out Good acts from the dogma and put in Salvation and all ways to pay them including special dispensations, confessionals (estate planning by the priests led the Church to say all priests must be celibate so they could not pass their wealth to an offspring - and yes, concubinage continued) and buying yourself into Heaven (Which the Pope in 1999 admitted his church created and which in truth like Hell is here on earth or what you make out of your life.). I will disregard the bias and desire evident in the OP.

When Pauline Christianity (and later the Synod of Whitby in 663 AD grabbed the assets of Churches which were against the 'only begotten' story and wished to keep Good acts) removed the Law of Retribution or karma they also took away whatever reason there was to ask the question about "is it enough" to have good intentions. Yes, I know you will say getting into Heaven is reason enough for you, but that is already covered. The King of Northumbria who had killed his cousin the prior king debated about it with Rome for many months. He was eventually given all the Celtic Christian land and assets - which was all land and assets of the Church at that time in the British Isles. He said he did it because St. Peter had the keys to Heaven - but I know he liked money and power - thus begins the story of England. It also lead to wars and oppression against others in the Emerald Isles.



Now

The question of Righteous Thought and Action which requires great INTENT to actualize - that is a good question as to whether that is enough.


But the THREE Magi in the Bible are righteous and truth is there to be found. The three Magian Laws include RIGHT THOUGHT = RIGHT action. How does one get from intention to action?

That is a very good question?
This post was last modified: 09-18-2015, 06:38 PM by Robert Baird.
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09-18-2015, 07:17 PM #4
sPEktrall
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(09-18-2015, 06:12 PM)The Creeper Wrote:  The title of this thread has the potential to be a good thread, I look forward to hearing everyones views and perhaps we could all learn something.

I did respond to this post in the thread you originally posted this post in brother. We can carry it on here on in that thread.

I do like the idea of the question posed by this thread, it is an important thing to ponder, but ultimately what one chooses to believe is a personal choice. It always has been, it always will be.

It is a personal choice indeed.  One with eternal ramifications I may add.

Prov 15:7 The lips of the wise disperse knowledge: but the heart of the foolish doeth not so.
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09-18-2015, 07:23 PM #5
Loki
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(09-18-2015, 07:17 PM)sPEktrall Wrote:  
(09-18-2015, 06:12 PM)The Creeper Wrote:  The title of this thread has the potential to be a good thread, I look forward to hearing everyones views and perhaps we could all learn something.

I did respond to this post in the thread you originally posted this post in brother. We can carry it on here on in that thread.

I do like the idea of the question posed by this thread, it is an important thing to ponder, but ultimately what one chooses to believe is a personal choice. It always has been, it always will be.

It is a personal choice indeed.  One with eternal ramifications I may add.

Or not.

“Life is neither good or evil, but only a place for good and evil.”
Marcus Aurelius

"In my opinion, there is a more scientific approach we can take to all hot-button issues. We do this when we stop demonizing the opposing viewpoints or victimizing ourselves, and we acknowledge and account for our own biases and emotions to the best of our ability."
--- Elliott C. Morgan
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09-18-2015, 07:36 PM #6
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If you look at the bible from  a metaphorical perspective instead of a literal one, you could say perhaps that Jesus was merely a man fully possessed by the "Holy Spirit".

The trick to understanding the Trinity of Christianity is to realize that the Holy Spirit is the spirit of righteousness.
All that is good and righteous in our own hearts is the Holy Spirit. As long as we consciously try to be the best that we can be, we are channeling the Holy Spirit.

In my own view, Jesus was merely a man who came to be fully possessed by the spirit of righteousness, and therefore became the living archetype of justice and mercy on Earth. And people were moved by this! In a time of intolerance, fear and hatred, Jesus was like a living lighthouse for those caught in that dark age, and people listened to his message because it makes sense.

So I would argue that it is all about intention, but you have to be careful how you express your intention. Recognize that instead of slaughtering your enemies in the name of God (because you believe it is righteous), you should forgive them instead and seek to make them your friends.

The Devil is a metaphorical principle as well. As is well documented in various religious texts, pride is Satan's most powerful tool to tempt people to evil. If you are so proud of your beliefs that you would consider attacking another son or daughter of God because they think differently then the Devil already has you. The Devil is in the details.

"You can find in a text whatever you bring, if you will stand between it and the mirror of your imagination. You may not see your ears, but they will be there." - Moral, by the Cat
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09-18-2015, 07:50 PM #7
sPEktrall
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(09-18-2015, 07:36 PM)HongKongHoward Wrote:  If you look at the bible from  a metaphorical perspective instead of a literal one, you could say perhaps that Jesus was merely a man fully possessed by the "Holy Spirit".

The trick to understanding the Trinity of Christianity is to realize that the Holy Spirit is the spirit of righteousness.
All that is good and righteous in our own hearts is the Holy Spirit. As long as we consciously try to be the best that we can be, we are channeling the Holy Spirit.

In my own view, Jesus was merely a man who came to be fully possessed by the spirit of righteousness, and therefore became the living archetype of justice and mercy on Earth. And people were moved by this! In a time of intolerance, fear and hatred, Jesus was like a living lighthouse for those caught in that dark age, and people listened to his message because it makes sense.

So I would argue that it is all about intention, but you have to be careful how you express your intention. Recognize that instead of slaughtering your enemies in the name of God (because you believe it is righteous), you should forgive them instead and seek to make them your friends.

The Devil is a metaphorical principle as well. As is well documented in various religious texts, pride is Satan's most powerful tool to tempt people to evil. If you are so proud of your beliefs that you would consider attacking another son or daughter of God because they think differently then the Devil already has you. The Devil is in the details.

Is this interpretation valid though even if scripture can prove that its not?  

Im by no means a gatekeeper to the word of God and I dont like shutting down others ideas as if to give off the impression that I have a view and its the only right one, but at the very least this notion regarding the holy spirit can be proven illegitimate.  Its not that im intolerant of others views, but if one studies the Bible long enough they will begin to see how narrow and black and white it paints reality.  It is an account of reality that makes definite claims to right and wrong, truth and error.
This post was last modified: 09-18-2015, 07:51 PM by sPEktrall.

Prov 15:7 The lips of the wise disperse knowledge: but the heart of the foolish doeth not so.
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09-18-2015, 07:59 PM #8
HongKongHoward
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Not to be disrespectful man but the Bible has been edited and fooked with too many times for it to prove anything. There are Egyptian writings that predate the Bible that contain similar (if not the same) stories.

But for some reason we don't worship these writings. If anything these writings would be less abstracted from the truth purely based on their age.

If the KIng James bible is the Word of God I'll eat my hat.

Filed with great lessons, but not the Word of God.

"You can find in a text whatever you bring, if you will stand between it and the mirror of your imagination. You may not see your ears, but they will be there." - Moral, by the Cat
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09-18-2015, 08:02 PM #9
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A good action with the wrong intention will not get us any reward in the Hereafter. So what about a bad action with a good intention?

One of the best hadiths that touches on this subject is composed from the "40 hadith" from Imam al-Nawawi.

Quote:Hadith 1: Actions are by Intentions[/b]
It is narrated on the authority of Amir al-Mu'minin (Leader of the Believers), Abu Hafs 'Umar bin al-Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him), who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him), say:

"Actions are according to intentions, and everyone will get what was intended. Whoever migrates with an intention for Allah and His messenger, the migration will be for the sake of Allah and his Messenger. And whoever migrates for worldly gain or to marry a woman, then his migration will be for the sake of whatever he migrated for."

Related by Bukhari & Muslim

http://40hadithnawawi.com/index.php/the-...s/hadith-1

The connection between action and intention highlights the connection between the physical and the spiritual components of any human. This hadith emphasizes on the importance of having an intention for every physical act that we do, and the importance of having a purpose for every action. It also brings to the forefront our conscious intention and the need to make the connection between our physical actions and their spiritual consequences.

Intentions lead to results. When a change in intention occurs, a change in the external conditions will follow. Intention is also enough for Allah (swt) to make a change in our reality, so we should not belittle the necessary change in intention that has to occur in order for our external condition to change.
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09-18-2015, 08:07 PM #10
sPEktrall
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(09-18-2015, 07:59 PM)HongKongHoward Wrote:  Not to be disrespectful man but the Bible has been edited and fooked with too many times for it to prove anything. There are Egyptian writings that predate the Bible that contain similar (if not the same) stories.

But for some reason we don't worship these writings. If anything these writings would be less abstracted from the truth purely based on their age.

If the KIng James bible is the Word of God I'll eat my hat.

Filed with great lessons, but not the Word of God.

If the Bible were truly edited(edited isnt the same thing as questionable words translated) it would be one of the easiest things to prove.





Lets just suppose what you are saying is true though...  Even in all of the translations(poor ones included) one cannot come away with the conclusion from the scriptures that the holy spirit is what is being proposed here.

Prov 15:7 The lips of the wise disperse knowledge: but the heart of the foolish doeth not so.
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