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Salvation, Moksha and Nirvana; also, A Response to some Posts.


09-14-2015, 01:10 AM #1
FlixKandish
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NOTE:
This post is going to be a bit jumbled up because of the format, but I hope to demonstrate how the ideas of Salvation and Moksha or Niravana are quite similar, if not the same. 

(09-13-2015, 01:30 AM)anne Wrote:  
(09-13-2015, 12:34 AM)FlixKandish Wrote:  
Anne
Youre out of line here, chica.

Moksha  is the same as your newly found grace in blood sacrifice, Jesus. Instead of going your own path, jesus did it for you.

How can you despise the religion of your culture for the remnants of its most barbaric customs?


Flix, can you atleast explain what you meant?
And well Hinduism,say what you will, but you don't know half the things about it, as much as I do, I was born into a Kashmiri Pundit family.
http://vigilantcitizen.com/forums/Thread...God?page=4


There are a few major ideas on what it takes to obtain Moksha and what the word means. It is either being released from the cycle of reincarnation, being one with or joining the deity after death coupled with said cycle ending, or living in a constate state of connection with god, to name a few. 
There are some sects who believe that living a certain lifestyle will achieve Nirvana. I'm sure we are all familiar with the average idea of a Buddhist and what they live like. This is Moksha, but works based, to borrow some apologist terminology. 

The Christian term Salvation means avoiding hell and spending eternal life with god. 

Both Christianity and the more deity centered Eastern religions are seeking to spend eternal life with god. This is why a lot of people say all the religions are really pointing towards the same thing. 
In the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna says that Bhakti Yoga is the highest form of worship and that is all that is needed to attain life with him after death, and his continuous presence in the mean time. The word Yoga is Yoke or To Join, so the entire idea behind yoga is being closer to god (and hence why some fundies are anti yoga-  they know what it really is about, and dont like the idea of something bringing you closer to a god that isnt their own) 

This is why I say the Salvation and Moksha are the same, either one wants to get closer to god. 

About the blood sacrifice, it really bothers me when people who are against any kind of primitive religious rituals believe in a human sacrifice as their own core message. I know all of you apologists are lining up at the door right now to tell me about how the sacrifices of Jesus and animals or mortals is different, or that I am taking it out of context, or that I cannot truly believe in it so I won't understand it, but please save your copy pasta for another thread; Human sacrifice is human sacrifice whether it comes from one country's mythology or anothers. 

So Anne, do you understand why I say Jesus is doing it for you? There's no work to do, there's no real animals to sacrifice, yet the most reprehensible part of the religion you came from is the center of the religion you claim now? 


(09-13-2015, 12:43 PM)FlixKandish Wrote:  
(09-13-2015, 11:49 AM)Scimitar Wrote:  
Flix,

Moksha is the idea of re-incarnation... comparing that to resurrection is totally like saying iron and copper as essentially the same thing - they are NOT... Flix, you may have studied Hinduism, but you only skim read the meanings Big Grin

Gotta try harder Flix,

Scimi
http://vigilantcitizen.com/forums/Thread...ty?page=10
scmi, moksha is the release from the cycle of reincarnation.



Reincarnation is Samsara . Being released from that is Moksha.
It is a specifically different word meaning what I described above.

Salvation ultimately means to spend eternity with god, to not live in hell (away from god). 
Moksha is spending eternity with god, or not reincarnating anymore (no longer being away from what spiritualists see as the true self.) See, the word has a lot of specific meanings. but ultimately ending the cycle of reincarnation is the basis. Anywhoo, either religion has the goal of either spending forever with god, or just simply not being back in this human existence on Earth anymore. Though achieving salvation is simple (belief only), and Moksha depends who you are talking to, they both have the same end goal, to be one with the higher power. 

Once again, why a lot of people say all religions are looking for the same thing. 

(09-13-2015, 01:14 PM)Scimitar Wrote:  
It is a part of the eschatology of Hinduism, and it refers explicitly to "reincarnation", and NOT RESURRECTION... which is what you was attempting to allude to in previous posts.

Pointing out a definition for what moksha is -  still doesn't help you to make the point you was previously alluding to - the idea that resurrection and reincarnation are synonymous - they are not.

Scimi


Note here on the strawman, I never said "The Resurrection" is like Moksha, I said "Salvation". You've attempted to state what I meant for me and then are attacking me based on that instead of taking my words at an honest face value. 
You do this a lot man, and now that I'm pointing it out I am simply going to quit replying to them. I don't mind talking with you, but when you get in a mood of building strawmen and doling out fallacies, I have nothing to reply to. 

-----

TLDR; Moksha and Salvation are the same thing as both aspire to bring you closer to god(or whatever you call the higher power as)  in the next life. 

 
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09-14-2015, 06:03 AM #2
Anna
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Heaven and hell of abrahamic religions are part of samsara. That is why people from eastern religions look indulgently on us and all other religions, because they believe that nirvana is higher then our gods.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%E1%B9%8...uddhism%29
These six realms are typically divided into three higher realms and three lower realms: the three higher realms are the realms of the gods, demi-gods, and humans; the three lower realms are the realms of the animals, hungry ghosts and hell beings. These realms can be described briefly as follows:[d]
  • God realm: the gods lead long and enjoyable lives full of pleasure and abundance, but they spend their lives pursuing meaningless distractions and never think to practice the dharma. When death comes to them, they are completely unprepared; without realizing it, they have completely exhausted their good karma (which was the cause for being reborn in the god realm) and they suffer through being reborn in the lower realms.
  • Demi-god realm: the demi-gods have pleasure and abundance almost as much as the gods, but they spend their time fighting among themselves or making war on the gods. When they make war on the gods, they always lose, since the gods are much more powerful. The demi-gods suffer from constant fighting and jealousy, and from being killed and wounded in their wars with each other and with the gods.
  • Human realm: humans suffer from hunger, thirst, heat, cold, separation from friends, being attacked by enemies, not getting what they want, and getting what they don't want. They also suffer from the general sufferings of birth, old age, sickness and death. Yet the human realm is considered to be the most suitable realm for practicing the dharma, because humans are not completely distracted by pleasure (like the gods or demi-gods) or by pain and suffering (like the beings in the lower realms).
  • Animal realm: wild animals suffer from being attacked and eaten by other animals; they generally lead lives of constant fear. Domestic animals suffer from being exploited by humans; for example, they are slaughtered for food, overworked, abused, and so on.
  • Hungry ghost realm: hungry ghosts suffer from extreme hunger and thirst. They wander constantly in search of food and drink, only to be miserably frustrated any time they come close to actually getting what they want. For example, they see a stream of pure, clear water in the distance, but by the time they get there the stream has dried up. Hungry ghosts have huge bellies and long thin necks. On the rare occasions that they do manage to find something to eat or drink, the food or water burns their neck as it goes down to their belly, causing them intense agony.
  • Hell realm: hell beings endure unimaginable suffering for eons of time. There are actually eighteen different types of hells, each inflicting a different kind of torment. In the hot hells, beings suffer from unbearable heat and continual torments of various kinds. In the cold hells, beings suffer from unbearable cold and other torments.

09-14-2015, 09:18 AM #3
Scimitar
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(09-14-2015, 01:10 AM)FlixKandish Wrote:  NOTE:
This post is going to be a bit jumbled up because of the format, but I hope to demonstrate how the ideas of Salvation and Moksha or Niravana are quite similar, if not the same. 

(09-13-2015, 01:30 AM)anne Wrote:  
(09-13-2015, 12:34 AM)FlixKandish Wrote:  
Anne
Youre out of line here, chica.

Moksha  is the same as your newly found grace in blood sacrifice, Jesus. Instead of going your own path, jesus did it for you.

How can you despise the religion of your culture for the remnants of its most barbaric customs?


Flix, can you atleast explain what you meant?
And well Hinduism,say what you will, but you don't know half the things about it, as much as I do, I was born into a Kashmiri Pundit family.
http://vigilantcitizen.com/forums/Thread...God?page=4


There are a few major ideas on what it takes to obtain Moksha and what the word means. It is either being released from the cycle of reincarnation, being one with or joining the deity after death coupled with said cycle ending, or living in a constate state of connection with god, to name a few. 
There are some sects who believe that living a certain lifestyle will achieve Nirvana. I'm sure we are all familiar with the average idea of a Buddhist and what they live like. This is Moksha, but works based, to borrow some apologist terminology. 

The Christian term Salvation means avoiding hell and spending eternal life with god. 

Both Christianity and the more deity centered Eastern religions are seeking to spend eternal life with god. This is why a lot of people say all the religions are really pointing towards the same thing. 
In the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna says that Bhakti Yoga is the highest form of worship and that is all that is needed to attain life with him after death, and his continuous presence in the mean time. The word Yoga is Yoke or To Join, so the entire idea behind yoga is being closer to god (and hence why some fundies are anti yoga-  they know what it really is about, and dont like the idea of something bringing you closer to a god that isnt their own) 

This is why I say the Salvation and Moksha are the same, either one wants to get closer to god. 

About the blood sacrifice, it really bothers me when people who are against any kind of primitive religious rituals believe in a human sacrifice as their own core message. I know all of you apologists are lining up at the door right now to tell me about how the sacrifices of Jesus and animals or mortals is different, or that I am taking it out of context, or that I cannot truly believe in it so I won't understand it, but please save your copy pasta for another thread; Human sacrifice is human sacrifice whether it comes from one country's mythology or anothers. 

So Anne, do you understand why I say Jesus is doing it for you? There's no work to do, there's no real animals to sacrifice, yet the most reprehensible part of the religion you came from is the center of the religion you claim now? 


(09-13-2015, 12:43 PM)FlixKandish Wrote:  
(09-13-2015, 11:49 AM)Scimitar Wrote:  
Flix,

Moksha is the idea of re-incarnation... comparing that to resurrection is totally like saying iron and copper as essentially the same thing - they are NOT... Flix, you may have studied Hinduism, but you only skim read the meanings Big Grin

Gotta try harder Flix,

Scimi
http://vigilantcitizen.com/forums/Thread...ty?page=10
scmi, moksha is the release from the cycle of reincarnation.



Reincarnation is Samsara . Being released from that is Moksha.
It is a specifically different word meaning what I described above.

Salvation ultimately means to spend eternity with god, to not live in hell (away from god). 
Moksha is spending eternity with god, or not reincarnating anymore (no longer being away from what spiritualists see as the true self.) See, the word has a lot of specific meanings. but ultimately ending the cycle of reincarnation is the basis. Anywhoo, either religion has the goal of either spending forever with god, or just simply not being back in this human existence on Earth anymore. Though achieving salvation is simple (belief only), and Moksha depends who you are talking to, they both have the same end goal, to be one with the higher power. 

Once again, why a lot of people say all religions are looking for the same thing. 

(09-13-2015, 01:14 PM)Scimitar Wrote:  
It is a part of the eschatology of Hinduism, and it refers explicitly to "reincarnation", and NOT RESURRECTION... which is what you was attempting to allude to in previous posts.

Pointing out a definition for what moksha is -  still doesn't help you to make the point you was previously alluding to - the idea that resurrection and reincarnation are synonymous - they are not.

Scimi


Note here on the strawman, I never said "The Resurrection" is like Moksha, I said "Salvation". You've attempted to state what I meant for me and then are attacking me based on that instead of taking my words at an honest face value. 
You do this a lot man, and now that I'm pointing it out I am simply going to quit replying to them. I don't mind talking with you, but when you get in a mood of building strawmen and doling out fallacies, I have nothing to reply to. 

-----

TLDR; Moksha and Salvation are the same thing as both aspire to bring you closer to god(or whatever you call the higher power as)  in the next life. 

 

Then you are making a "Moot" point Flix, every single religion in the world has "salvation"... you was applying the term strictly to Re-in carnation though, in the "problems with Christianity" thread. For the record, in Christianity - salvation is in the act of Crucifixion of Jesus (pbuh) and his "resuurection". You was replying to "Anne" who is an ex Hindu - and you was talking about moksha, in Hinduism, which is a driect eschatological understanding of Re-incarnation... NOT RESURRECTION... my point still stands.

Scimi

Out beyond ideas
of wrong-doing,


and right-doing,

there is a field...

...I'll meet you there.
€



Jalaluddin Rumi
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09-14-2015, 09:52 AM #4
FlixKandish
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I am NOT talking about what Jesus did, I am talking about the believer, the individual's experience and their spiritual salvation. I tried to explain this above but I guess you didn't fully read what I wrote.

09-14-2015, 02:22 PM #5
Scimitar
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Hi Flix,

I've read and understood what you wrote - but at this juncture, a circular argument is something we both can do without - So I'll take your clarification with the best of intentions and nip this in the bud, if you like Smile

Scimi

Out beyond ideas
of wrong-doing,


and right-doing,

there is a field...

...I'll meet you there.
€



Jalaluddin Rumi

09-14-2015, 06:02 PM #6
K-Roox
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Can you elaborate more on the similarities between all these religions in regards to having union with deity? From what I understand, the very answer of what (Or better who) is deity is different enough to completely separate them.

Also, on the nature of salvation and how it is obtained? Work and grace are utterly opposed, for example.

''Haste thee on from grace to glory,
Armed by faith, and winged by prayer.
Heaven’s eternal days before thee,
God’s own hand shall guide us there.
Soon shall close thy earthly mission,
Soon shall pass thy pilgrim days,
Hope shall change to glad fruition,
Faith to sight, and prayer to praise.''

09-15-2015, 12:46 AM #7
FlixKandish
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(09-14-2015, 06:02 PM)K-Roox Wrote:  Can you elaborate more on the similarities between all these religions in regards to having union with deity? From what I understand, the very answer of what (Or better who) is deity is different enough to completely separate them.

Also, on the nature of salvation and how it is obtained? Work and grace are utterly opposed, for example.
in response to the first paragraph:
It really depends who you talk to as far as what "union" entails. To some, its going back to the source, to others it's an eternal life of paradise with God as a friend (?). Despite what it's defined as, it seems the religion's goal is avoidance of eternity without god. In other words, it's not the details that are important, it's looking at the faCT that humanity through thousands of years and hundreds of cultures has strived find peace in death through belief in a higher power.

Which leads me to the second sentence of the first paragraph:
The "who" doesn't really matter when looking at the Grand scheme of things. I don't think gods are real so going over their individual attributes and judging them from a rose color lense or bias in some literal meaning doesn't really make sense to me.

What are you asking in your second paragraph, exactly?

09-15-2015, 11:55 PM #8
K-Roox
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(09-15-2015, 12:46 AM)FlixKandish Wrote:  
(09-14-2015, 06:02 PM)K-Roox Wrote:  Can you elaborate more on the similarities between all these religions in regards to having union with deity? From what I understand, the very answer of what (Or better who) is deity is different enough to completely separate them.

Also, on the nature of salvation and how it is obtained? Work and grace are utterly opposed, for example.
in response to the first paragraph:
It really depends who you talk to as far as what "union" entails. To some, its going back to the source, to others it's an eternal life of paradise with God as a friend (?). Despite what it's defined as, it seems the religion's goal is avoidance of eternity without god. In other words, it's not the details that are important, it's looking at the faCT that humanity through thousands of years and hundreds of cultures has strived find peace in death through belief in a higher power.
I freely agree that there indeed is a silver thread found throughout all religion that points to such a thing. To add to that, the notion that we must appease God/the gods/the universe because we have some sort of guilt or debt is also true, which of course also touches on understandings of good and evil and the consequences for each after death.

However it is totally worth noting the details beyond this. Nirvana is extremely different than New Jerusalem. One need only cursory read descriptions of each and they will see that. The destinations are different and thus too how the debt and payment of debt is defined is also different. So too what is good, what is evil, etc.

These details are important because in one man's pursuit of eternal bliss, the other man looks at it and may see it as him actually following a path to destruction and torment. The details matter, to the degree that good is called evil and evil called good. It can make or break only a few details to utterly change something. I'm sure you can think of examples of every day situations for this.

(09-15-2015, 12:46 AM)FlixKandish Wrote:  Which leads me to the second sentence of the first paragraph:
The "who" doesn't really matter when looking at the Grand scheme of things. I don't think gods are real so going over their individual attributes and judging them from a rose color lense or bias in some literal meaning doesn't really make sense to me.
You can't escape judging them with a certain color of lens or bias. You're doing that very thing as you make that truth claim above.

We can indeed go over the characteristics of gods and understand things from them. What is Belial compared to Christ? Adulterous, half-witted gods compared to a being bearing every admirable attribute we know deep down to be good?

(09-15-2015, 12:46 AM)FlixKandish Wrote:  What are you asking in your second paragraph, exactly?
I am just further illustrating the differences to consider in terms of how one can get to eternal bliss, or have peace with God/gods/themselves/whatever.

The differences are extreme. One book says work to avoid judgement. The Bible says you're heaping up judgment upon yourself if you think you can work to avoid judgement.

''Haste thee on from grace to glory,
Armed by faith, and winged by prayer.
Heaven’s eternal days before thee,
God’s own hand shall guide us there.
Soon shall close thy earthly mission,
Soon shall pass thy pilgrim days,
Hope shall change to glad fruition,
Faith to sight, and prayer to praise.''
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09-16-2015, 12:25 AM #9
FlixKandish
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I am well aware that Christians, namely fundamentalists as yourself, tend to think that any god but yhwh is evil and any path to that God except jesus is the trail to evil. That's fine.

Tho, to those of us on the outside or who are more open minded, or who don't follow rigid dogma, we can understand that humanity's mythological obsession leads to, in general, the need to believe in a typr peace in some kind of afterlife. The details of each persons belief doesn't really matter when it comes down to all of us getting along, as long as youre not hurting anyone.

I am also well aware that you would like to take this opportunity to explain to us all how the sacrifice of jesus and his dad's promise of afterlife are superior to other ancient holy book's character's promises and sacrifices. Please, save the preaching for another thread.
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09-16-2015, 12:30 AM #10
FlixKandish
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I don't think it matters what the route to a desirable afterlife is, in the bigger picture. We are all well aware that each religion has different paths. The point is that the ending place is being with God in the afterlife, or whatever someone interprets god to be.

That's great your religion requires only mental submission to yhwh and his son, not sure how that makes it better than any other person's beliefs, it does tho, certainly make it easy. Wink
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