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Terraforming Mars


09-11-2015, 08:35 AM #1
Robert Baird
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I wonder if Elon read my book on Tesla (whose great grand-niece Leposova worked for me in 1982).

When I was growing up my father said Venus could become more atmospherically hospitable if we exploded nuclear devices on it's surface. He said the methane gas there would be ideal for making an atmosphere to protect the surface which is bombarded with heat from the sun.

My father was a very educated man in his day and had achieved a 200 mark on the military IQ test (out of 212). He was offered a job at Canada's nuclear flagship - Chalk River, but the entry level pay he was offered did not match what he was earning as a production controller.

Now, I see Elon Musk wants to explode such devices over the poles of Mars. I applaud him!

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...ng-nuking-mars
"A fool thinks he is a wise man, a wise man knows he is a fool." - Socrates
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09-11-2015, 11:41 PM #2
Thy Unveiling
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Ummm....really? You're stealing Creeper's signature and...smh not worth stepping into the lions den.
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09-12-2015, 12:25 AM #3
Robert Baird
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His is a variation on this one - and we discussed why he uses the Shakespeare one in a moment before he got all caught up in the lynch mob you and other nutcases suffer in.

I have used this as my motto for fifty years or more.

It happens at On Three Points (a new forum for more rational people so far) they added this on all my posts, and I copied it.

So do you have anything meaningful or relevant to say about the thread or are you just pulling your pants down for all to see?

09-12-2015, 10:26 AM #4
The Creeper
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To be fair, me and RB did have a conversation about my signature. Socrates said it way before shakespear did, I just prefered the way the shakepear quote was worded. A lot of people have realised the basic truth of those words.

RB I don't expect us to agree about everything but that doesn't mean we can't be civil. I don't go out of my way to call people out for things but if I see someone being rude or nasty for no good reason, I will get on their case. Also sometimes I see something which is so mind bogglingly stupid that I have to ask them if they are serious. For the most part I let things slide because its not worth my time being dragged into petty arguements.

Now that I got that out of the way, unless a thread is totally derailed, I do try to keep things on topic.

I remember hearing that if we do what we are doing to the Earth on Mars (creating greenhouse gases and all that), we would build up the atmosphere (which is thinner than Earths) and melt the water at the poles. Which would make it far more supporting of our form of life.

There used to liquid water on Mars and possibly even life itself, it is possible that water and life might still exist beneath the planets surface. As far as we now at the moment, where there is liquid water there is a possibility for life. If there is life on Mars, do we have the right to invade and terraform their planet?

From what I know, the surface of Mars is made up of fine dust which is often whiped up into massive dust storms unlike anything we have ever seen on Earth. Nuking the poles might well melt the ice but wouldn't the radiation and nuclear fallout spread across the entire planet in one of these massive dust storms? Thus rendering it uninhabitable for human life and defeating the entire purpose of trying to terraform it in the first place. Seems like a terrible idea to me. If we are going to terraform Mars, we should do the job right, not fast. If there is life it would have a chance to adapt as well, instead of just straight up being nuked into oblivion.

Venus is too close to the sun and its surface is molten rock, so I think it is unlikely to ever have life on it, esspecially when our sun goes red dwarf and swallows it.

The most likely planet in our solar system (apart from Earth, obviously) to have life on it is Europa, one of Jupiters moons. Its surface is ice but people reckon that there could be a massive ocean under that ice.
This post was last modified: 09-12-2015, 10:30 AM by The Creeper.

A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool – William Shakespear
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09-12-2015, 12:13 PM #5
Robert Baird
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Dear Creeper

All good points but I see it this way.

The radiation effects will be localized as they are on earth - the dust storms will abate as the atmosphere develops.

The life underground is microbial and I had this debate on Astronomy MSN groups over ten years ago. At that time the experts said there was no life or even water on Mars. I presented facts in rocks found in Texas and Canada from about a year before. They debated whether it was from Mars or came there then got re-sent here - etc.

There were people so dense they made those rocks seem almost the consistency of water - not unlike most people who are teachers, professors and engineers or experts who have been told what to think rather than learn how to think. I learned this from my genius father before I went to school. I can remember debating Is God Dead with a man named Art Drinkwater and my father (Jim we called him - which he liked rather than being put in a titular position of authority.). Drinkwater owned a well drilling company and was helping us get water as we worked making a well through solid blue clay, to be the first people with indoor plumbing. You should browse for The Testing Industry and put my name in, if you want a greater insight to our education fiasco.

Is God Dead was all the rage in the decade before freedom from religion and indoctrination for religions was ended. Drinkwater chuckled and said ``Òut of the mouths of babes``. I was only four and began Grade one about two months later due to there being no kindergarten that year and my father got me in a year earlier so I would not have to waste a full two years in school. Kindergarten was planned to start the year after where I lived just outside Toronto.  Jim then said ``Do not patronize my boy....`` Art said little but looked amused or befuddled. Jim said ``He knows how to question authority and think better than you do.`` Art said ``How can you say that.``

My father told him to get off his property and never step foot on it again, with emphasis.

The terraforming discussions continued at the two top astronomy sites, and a bleed over to other sites where physics professors held court. I presented what others were saying about how we could get Mars to the point where we could walk on it without space suits in 50 years if we spent the budget of NASA each of those years. Methods included space reflectors to heat up the surface. We have since discovered a great deal more water there and everywhere else. The use of Helium Three and mining which also has been recently put forward is possibly a great improvement as well. One estimate went - in 150 years we would have Martian Life including flora and fauna. Now we face only one big problem - to make it all happen - shield technology to get there. Elon has said he wants to retire to Mars, and I hope he succeeds where other people who cannot think never will. Alcubierre and NASA may have an answer I have touted for two or three decades - faster than light travel. I got it from action-at-a-distance in occult experience, plus a lot of Godel and some Einstein. The benefit of this approach is a space-time bubble wave generator which puts the craft inside the bubble with the shielding benefits so resulting. That might be available in 50 years if it can actually work - there are different approaches and I was promoting Ion Propulsion with Ram Jet inclusion to build slowly up to warp speed.

Your comment about Venus is the usual - again, remember the atmosphere created by the methane and Hydrogen Bombs would reduce the surface temperature substantially. Probably not enough for human habitation of any sort. But we could use robots and machines to mine it.

The big unknown for me in what Elon is suggesting has to do with genetic mutations (which have happened here on Earth) and what level of effect would they have on any life we built up in the terraforming process. I do not know the answer to that but I trust he has considered it, and others will ensure it gets considered.

Europa is a possibility and it has loads of water, but terraforming it will not solve the issue of heat in the atmosphere enough to make what can result on Mars become a reality - I could be wrong - do you have some reference addressing that.
This post was last modified: 09-12-2015, 12:22 PM by Robert Baird.
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  • The Creeper

09-12-2015, 01:26 PM #6
The Creeper
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I definately think it is possible to terraform Mars, out of all the planets in our solar system that is the most likely one where we will have success. We wont even need faster than light travel to get there, its our closest planet and if we time it right (when our orbits bring us closest to each other) it is possible to get there with our current technology. I just wouldn't trust the nukes until we find some way to stop the dust storms and wouldn't it be possible for the water melting off the ice to contain radioactive particles if we nuke it? Im not saying that it wouldn't work, it just doesn't seem entirely safe to me. There is also the ethical implication of wiping out whatever life may already be there (not that most people seem to worry about this on our own native planet).

Exploring other planets would be an amazing experiance but it is also really dangerous. We evolved on Earth (unless you believe in those ancient astronaught theories, or that evolution is a myth) so Earth has the best conditions to allow us to survive. The end goal of terraforming is to make that planet more like ours, so maybe we should nuke it and spread radiation everywhere.

Your comment about Venus is the usual - again, remember the atmosphere created by the methane and Hydrogen Bombs would reduce the surface temperature substantially. Probably not enough for human habitation of any sort. But we could use robots and machines to mine it.

I thought the atmosphere on Venus made the planet even hotter. If that atomosphere could be changed to cool the planet we could indeed send robots. If we can develop technology to sheild us from the heat and gases we might be able to live there in specialised buildings, but the surface of Venus will probably always be inhospitable.

The big unknown for me in what Elon is suggesting has to do with genetic mutations (which have happened here on Earth) and what level of effect would they have on any life we built up in the terraforming process. I do not know the answer to that but I trust he has considered it, and others will ensure it gets considered.


Our bodies would have to adapt to less gravity and a thinner atmosphere, so my best guess would be that we grow taller and develop a better respiratory system and maybe thicker skin. I remember reading something about what would happen to us after living for a few generations in a base on the moon but I couldn't find the link. Anything sent to another planet would have to adapt and change to survive the new conditions but I can only hazard a guess as to what those changes might be.

Europa is a possibility and it has loads of water, but terraforming it will not solve the issue of heat in the atmosphere enough to make what can result on Mars become a reality - I could be wrong - do you have some reference addressing that.

My apologies, I mentioned Europa purely because there could be life on it, which I find facinating. I wouldn't have any idea how to terraform it and if it does have a thriving ecosystem, terraforming it could cause a mass extinction. It would also be a lot harder to get to and work on given its close proximity to Jupiter as well. I know Jupiter creates powerful tidal effects on Europa and bathes it in radiation (which I know I have said is bad, but radiation causes mutations/evolution which allow life to evolve and the life that might be there would have evolved to handle such large doses) I wasn't aware of heat in the atmosphere of Europa, the surface is ice, I thought it was the friction caused by tidal forces which allowed the sub-surface ocean to exist. A lot of what I have said here is drawn from memory so I might need to look it up again. Facinating topic, but I think a lot of space stuff is. To wonder if we are alone in the universe (impossible), are we even alone in our solar system? I hope we know for certain within my lifetime.

A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool – William Shakespear
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09-12-2015, 01:41 PM #7
Robert Baird
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Yes, there is no heat on Europa to think about - as far as us living there. That was my point.

We can get to Mars in seven or nine months IF we have a way to shield the craft - which is a big gamble with computer aided lasers when a cloud of space debris presents itself. The issues of adapting to weightlessness in travel and the reduced gravitational effects you speak about are being studied. Ellesmere Island is one place the studies have been going on since my debates with troglodytes mentioned above.

Water sublimation and distillation away from the radiation will cleanse it. There will be a period of time for the atmosphere to strengthen enough to reduce the dust storms brought about by solar radiation.

You could be right about buildings making Venus livable - the key thing is a denser atmosphere shields the planet from the sun`s heat. I doubt making those buildings will be feasible from a cost benefit analysis POV except for mining. Do you know about the comet mining venture that was brought to an IPO a couple of years ago.

I get the feeling you are buying into some Sitchin or Bible alien nonsense when you talk about life on Mars or Europa.

I agree with the moral principles you are expressing when there is sentient life developing or possible in a million years.
This post was last modified: 09-12-2015, 01:56 PM by Robert Baird.
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  • The Creeper

09-12-2015, 01:54 PM #8
Robert Baird
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The matter of life in our universe rising to the level of near sentience is fiction as I see it. Niburu NONsense and Bible narrative stories for those who need EASY ANSWERS.

But there is non-corporeal knowledge and consciousness as well as consciousnesses in all matter we should consider.

Have you read Stranger in a Strange Land by Heinlein. It was a great growth experience for me - and very influential in introducing me to Eastern Mysticism. Michael Valentine Smith was the key character (and born on Mars) who fought against a Holy Roller combined with Scientology type of governing group like exists here at this forum. They were called Fosterites - maybe here it would be MBandScummy -ites.

Sorry - had to say that (to all those who might want their name in the new governing group for life on Earth).

He was non-corporeal when he wished - and I have experience in De-Materialization so it is not so weird to me. Heinlein got it from the likes of Vivekananda. Smith could also discorporate anything he wished to - and THAT is something government is advancing to do through Tesla technology (see first post herewith). It may offer us a shield technology through what he said he could do with a Unified Force Field and which may have occurred through the use of Russia`s Tesla Tower to the Korean airliner in the 1980s. But it seems too intermittent and takes up too much room - at present.
This post was last modified: 09-12-2015, 01:55 PM by Robert Baird.

09-12-2015, 02:06 PM #9
Thy Unveiling
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(09-12-2015, 12:25 AM)Robert Baird Wrote:  His is a variation on this one - and we discussed why he uses the Shakespeare one in a moment before he got all caught up in the lynch mob you and other nutcases suffer in.

I have used this as my motto for fifty years or more.

It happens at On Three Points (a new forum for more rational people so far) they added this on all my posts, and I copied it.

So do you have anything meaningful or relevant to say about the thread or are you just pulling your pants down for all to see?

Fair enough. My mistake. Typically I skim over your posts because they're written very boringly and with smug arrogance. (Mainly I click on them so they don't show up as "new") Although you're a one-man lynch mob. And I don't think too many of us are suffering in the terms that you imply.

If you think so little of us here, then please stay with the rational people. Idk why you keep coming back.

Your last dig is stupid and childish. And no, I really don't have much relevant to say here on topic as I can barely make it through Creeper's responses and usually I like everything he has to say. I like his comments here, too, but some of it goes over my head. I've already stated my problem with your writing style. All I can really say is they've been planning to colonize Mars for as long as I can remember. Predictive programming. Doesn't matter if any of us think this is a good idea or not. Tptb will do what they want to do simply because they can. Once they've sufficiently destroyed Mars, I'm sure they'll move on elsewhere. Like in those sci-fi movies where the aliens go around destroying all the other planets. More predictive programming, only we're the bad aliens.
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09-12-2015, 02:26 PM #10
The Creeper
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Yes, there is no heat on Europa to think about - as far as us living there. That was my point.

Thanks for clearing that up, I get what you mean now.

We can get to Mars in seven or nine months IF we have a way to shield the craft - which is a big gamble with computer aided lasers when a cloud of sapce debris presents itself. The issues of adapting to weightlessness in travel and the reduced gravitational effects you speak about are being studied. Ellesmere Island is one place the studies have been going on since my debates with troglodytes mentioned above.

I was talking about adapting to the conditions of Mars itself, as it is half the size of Earth there will be less gravity. I hadn't put that much thought in how to get there but I know in the grand scheme of things (we are talking about space travel) it is one of the easier planets for us to reach (not that there is anything easy about space travel). Considering the vast distances in space, the fact that we could potentially get there inside of a year (with adequate sheilding) is incredible. We would also have to include all the equipment to enable us to survive on an alien world, which would add to the amount of fuel needed to get there.

Water sublimation and distillation away from the radiation will cleanse it. There will be a period of time for the atmosphere to strengthen enough to reduce the dust storms brought about by solar radiation.

You could be right, it still seems dodgey to me. Any talk about radiation just makes me think about Fukushima and the nightmares that have been inflicted upon people by the use of atomic weapons.

You could be right about buildings making Venus livable - the key thing is a denser atmosphere shields the planet from the sun`s heat. I doubt making those buildings will be feasible from a cost benefit analysis POV except for mining. Do you know about the comet mining venture that was brought to an IPO a couple of years ago.

Im assuming any activity in space is going to cost a lot of money, we would have to have a really good reason to go there or it wont be worth it. I was thinking about possible buildings that we might be able to put in the deep sea soon, we have only recently developed the technology to explore that deep down and we know more about the surface of the moon than the deep parts of the sea. My imagination took over and I couild see us eventually developing something like that for Venus.

I had heard about the comet mining, they are seeing if its a good way to find resources and also studying the possibility of astrobiology, that life (or its building blocks) may have been brought to Earth (and other planets) by comets.

I get the feeling you are buying into some Sitchin or Bible alien nonsense when you talk about life on Mars or Europa.

I agree with the moral principles you are expressing when there is sentient life developing or possible in a million years.


Just to clarify my views, I believe one God created all that is. He existed before the universe, He created it, He is not bound by its rules. That just makes sense to me. Im happy to talk about my beliefs and other people can believe whatever they want to believe, to each their own, as long as we don't insult or belittle each other. You don't have to be religious to know about love and respect. Our perspectives are unique to the individual but we are all on a journey through life, in that respect we are one with everything else that is alive.

Considering the sheer scale of the universe, it is impossible to me that Earth is the only planet with life on it. We probably have no idea how varied life can be either (im trying to avoid a massive religious debate here, but consider the jinn, spirits, demons, whatever you choose to call them, non-physical entities). I said earlier, as far as we know life needs water, we could make a discovery in a few years which turns this thesis upside down and them we will look in places we never even considered. Also think about extremophiles. I might be getting a little bit off topic but I really like this video.



This post was last modified: 09-12-2015, 02:59 PM by The Creeper.
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